20. Interview - Pierre Paslier, Notpla

James Piper: Hello. Welcome to Talking Rubbish, a weekly podcast delving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and one sided stories. I'm James Piper or author of the Rubbish Book. And I'm joined by Robie Stanifforth by Far From Rubbish Friend and Pierre paier from Not Plat are far from Rubbish guest. Hi, Robbie. Hi.

Robbie Staniforth: He James.

James Piper: I was reading let's Recycle the other day. I don't think in 20 episodes we've mentioned let's Recycle yet.

Robbie Staniforth: Really? Let's recycle. Thatad calm.

James Piper: Exactly. Is that their official advert know.

Robbie Staniforth: But if they're looking for some voiceover, work, I'm happy to take it.

James Piper: So let's Recycle is like the industry news, isn't it? And I just, you know when sometimes you think our industry has a lot of acronyms, you think we ve just got too many acronyms. This is the worst one I've seen so far.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, go on then. Well, should we test whether I can get the acronyms?

James Piper: Okay, the first bit we're all going to get. So we. AI. You'll get that acronym.

Pierre Paslier: Yeah.

James Piper: Okay. Will AI replace NIR for DMR Sorting. That's a lot of acronyms.

Robbie Staniforth: Indestible.

James Piper: Tackle them one at a time. So will AI.

Robbie Staniforth: M. Let me think. Automate. M. Artificial intelligence.

James Piper: Yeah, Artificial. You're about to display them. Will AI. So yeah, Artificial Intelligence. Okay, now we learned the next one on a previous episode. So replace NIR near infrared.

Robbie Staniforth: Got that? Unlocked Infred.

James Piper: Okay. So will AI replace near infrared for dmr.

Robbie Staniforth: Dry Mix recycling.

James Piper: Dry Mix Recycling, Sorting. That's great, isn't it? So let's try that. So the full thing without the acronyms is Will Artificial Intelligence replace near infrared for Dry Mixed Recycling Sorting.

Robbie Staniforth: That is not a snappy headline. But then nors the acronyms either.

James Piper: but I think I'll just keep finding these headlines and then that will help us all learn these acronyms. you know, I keep thinking we've got all these long, long term topics we're talking about. and we're you know I said we have the survey ongoing. We are getting people saying in the survey I keep dropping into the odd episode and I have no idea what you're going on about. This is a bit of a reminder that this is a series and it's best to listen to every episode because we just sort of keep building on things that we talk about.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh really?

James Piper: What?

Robbie Staniforth: Calling back to some joke. And people are like, what the hell are these two people on about?

James Piper: Yeah, so 99% of people are like, oh, it's so good. Like, I love the way it's building. And then there's like 1% of people going, literally not got a clue what you're going.

Jo: I'm going to call back to Preserve about refill problems

So yeah, the one I'm going to call back to is Preserve, which is my local refill shop. So, you know, we talked about refill a lot. I've talked about this shop a lot. And I sent my friend off the other day to go into Preserve to get some food because we're, I'm trying to use it more and more. And I was like, oh, can you go and get me some. I want. We wanted some sweets anyway. So it was s. Like, can we get some sweets? And then, and then we need some, washing up liquid. So he was going to Preserve, took the bottle, he was super excited and he came out head in hands and just went, that was an absolute disaster. And I was like, how have you messed up refill so much? So he told me. And then I thought, well, this is amazing fodder for the podcast. So. Right. So there's two things that happened that they judged him for. So the first one is for the sweets. He mixed two different sweets in one bag and they were like, they've got.

Robbie Staniforth: Different price points, price is different weight, per price or whatever. O. So it's not pick a mix.

James Piper: No. So suddenly refill required multiple bags.

Robbie Staniforth: O.

James Piper: That S. That was a problem. M. I know. And then he put the washing up liquid in the bottle he'd brought with him, but he hadn't weighed the bottle. So the lady was like, look, before you put the liquid in, you have to weigh the bottle. And he didn't do that.

Robbie Staniforth: Gosh, lots of education needs to go and it sounds a bit too complicated for me. Surely they should make it simpler for him.

James Piper: I'm going toa send him back next time. He's learned his lesson. Yeah. You know what to do.

Robbie Staniforth: He's learn the hard way. Hopefully he hasn't been shamed into never doing it ever again.

James Piper: And you know, in episode one. Right, so look, here comes the callbacks that the 1% are go. Goingna go. What the hell are you talking about? in episode one and a few episodes since, we have called Murf Smurfs. Right.

Robbie Staniforth: As a Jo Smurfs. Yeah.

James Piper: Yeah, because it's just easier to. Easier to say. So we've been saying Smurfs. Well, I had an email From a guy called Ben. Thank you so much for this email, Ben. Ben works at a Scottish material recovery facility. Smurf.

Robbie Staniforth: He works in an actual Smurf.

James Piper: He works in a Smurf. He was like, well, we are called a Smurf. This isn't like a joke, you know, that's what the Scottish ones are called.

Pierre Paslier: very good.

James Piper: And just a rival review from Peru. And honestly, in the episode where I said people keep complaining we do too many callbacks. I think we've done far too many callbacks in Arrival to review from Peru and been with a fin. It's a Smurf in Perf.

Robbie Staniforth: Perth. Oh, wow, that's amazing.

James Piper: Smurf in Perth. Per.

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Robbie Staniforth: Very good.

James Piper: So he's been this podcast going, I've got to write in. Not only am I a Smurf, but I'm a Smurf in Perth.

Robbie Staniforth: Nice. He's got better gags than us to be for.

James Piper: Yes.

In episode 16, we talked about recycling a credit or debit card

So in terms of ED addition and corrections of previous episodes, in episode 16, we talked about recycling a creditash debit card and whether they can be recycled. And we had an email from Oliver. Thank you so much, Oliver. Who actually wanted to call out a couple of things that we should have thought about specifically. Well, first of all, the thing I think we should have talked about is virtual cards. We didn't really talk about them. yeah, so he was talking about Wise, which is a new bank and they have virtual cards, which is really cool. So there's no physical card. It's all held on the phone, works for contactless, all the numbers, so you can use it online, all those kind of things.

Robbie Staniforth: I didn't even know that Wise. Okay, that's news to.

James Piper: Yeah, virtual card. But then a lot of them have virtual cards. You know, I have Monzo, and you can go on and find your numbers, can't you? But you technically don't need the card.

Robbie Staniforth: I hadn't, I guess, ever considered it. I've got Monzo, but.

James Piper: Yeah, okay, I guess you're using where? It depends. I'm using Virtual Car.

Robbie Staniforth: No, no, I do use a Google Wallet. Yeah, but I just didn't. Yeah, you're right. It doesn't actually need a physical card.

James Piper: Yes. And then they also offer an eco card, which he said he doesn't think it can be recycled. But basically, in a nice call out to this episode, it uses a biodegradable plastic substitute. It's made from corn, like non edible corn, which is renewable and organic and replaces all the PVC So I think maybe we'll have to get Pierre's view on non edible corn and whether that's good plastic. I think we'll, Should we find out?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, let's find out.

Pierre from Notpla talks about seaweed based packaging alternatives to plastic

James Piper: So Robbie and I are joined today by Pierre, who's the co founder of Notpla and not pla, meaning KN Plastic, which is very exciting and I can't wait to discuss that. But not plastic because not play use a seaweed based. I don't know what to call it if it's not plastic. Seaweed based packaging, which can be used as an alternative to plastic. And we'll get into whether it really is not plastic because that is, as you will have heard in the last episode, mine and Robbie's absolute bug bear. People who say plastic free when it is just plastic, just made from a different material. So I'm really excited to get into the detail on this. Hi, Pierre.

Pierre Paslier: Hey, how's it going?

James Piper: Hello. Very good, thank you. Thank you so much for coming on to Talking Rubbish. We really appreciate it. Thanks for having m. Me Very, very excited to have you on.

Pierre Paslier: Yeah, no, thanks.

Robbie: Should we talk about your gift on today's show

James Piper: Should we talk about your gift? Because your gift is so related to what you do. So we. Every time we get a guest on Robbie's amazed that I've prepped this, I.

Robbie Staniforth: Was wondering whether Pierre was gonna look shocked and be like, gift great. Well done.

James Piper: We couldn't have it again. We couldn't have it again. Where I hadn't told the gueston suddenly. I mean, what did Alex found? A £1 85 vinyl record. I think this is such a great opener to what you're all about, Pierre.

Seaweed plays a role in many industries and packaging is one

So do you want to let us know what book you'd like to give away as part of Talking Rubbish?

Pierre Paslier: Ok. Yeah. So it's a book called the Seaweed Revolution. and it's the seminal, kind of like, it's the bible of seaweed, everything Seaweed, written by Vincecent Dulle. He's like the seaweed envoy at the un and he's basically like making sure that every industry considers all the benefits of seaweed that often are kind of like not talked about. Not really kind of like seen, as a possibility. But actually seaweed plays a role in many industries. Already today it's in our toothpaste, it's in our ketchup, it's in our beer, it's in our kind of like face creams, ice creams. It's in so many products of everyday life that know about. But probably in the future it's going to Be in a lot more. And packaging is one of them. And so we'all talk a lot more about that very soon.

Robbie Staniforth: Wow. So it's not just in my daughter'sushi. She's a big sushi fan, so she knows seaweed very well. For just one purpose in those Mackie.

Pierre Paslier: Rolells, they are like, in a way, a form of edible packaging. So, that's definitely a piece of, inspiration for us. When we. When you think about, edible packaging, there's also a lot of examples in everydayight, from like ice cream cones to, Well, lots of kind of like pills of fruits. So seaweed has a little bit that card to play that like every species of seaweed is edible and therefore there's quite a lot of opportunities.

Robbie Staniforth: Wow. Another gift that we want, James. Yes, another one.

James Piper: I know. Well, I'm going to order. I'm definitely going to order a copy of this book for myself, but. So I assume you and your co founder were in Yo Sushi. You just looked at each other and went, what if you were like, this is packaging. Is that what happened? Is that how you stop?

Pierre Paslier: Would have been a, good story. Maybe I'll edit my story to incorporate a little bit of that. But it was definitely kind of like, a surprising moment. We

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Pierre Paslier: never thought that we would find ourselves, working in seaweed. I think I never imagined and I didn't know anything about seaweed before kind of like starting this product. So it's been a real discovery that has kind of like kept on giving for the last, decade.

James Piper: Nototpl are probably best known as the people who won the second Earthshot, prize, which is just absolutely incredible. And I happen to know Pier's just got back from Cape Town, where you've been like wining and dining, I suspect, with the Prince.

Pierre Paslier: With Prince William, you know.

James Piper: Wow, amazing.

Robbie Staniforth: So you actually had a chat with Prince William. That's how it goes. Very cool. And took an interest in the product and stuff.

Pierre Paslier: He's actually a big fan of seaweed. and so, for the first time this ear price, there was a whole kind of like workshop, a day workshop on seaweed that he came and kind of like attended, where there were 50 organisations from all around the world leveraging this earial priceize movement, come to Cape Town to discuss about,

James Piper: How the future looks like, ablutely amazing. You were telling us just before you dialled in that you went snorkelling with the seaweed in Cape Town. Is that right?

Pierre Paslier: Yeah.

James Piper: did he come with you.

Pierre Paslier: Not that far. Next year. Next year, Next year.

James Piper: Okay.

Pierre Paslier: But, yeah. Cape Town is home to one of the giant Kelt forests. and those are just incredible. it was, I mean, like having worked in seaweed for quite a few years now, it was an incredible experience to go, snorkel in the giant kelp and you see those seven metre tall, kind of like giant seaweed plants. Ah. All around. some of those species can grow up to for decent per day. So it's one of the fastest growing organs on the planet. So it's just insane to be in there. I have photos where I'm like a tiny little kind of like human in this giant kind of like, Cal Forst. So it felt really cool.

KNOTPL is made of seaweed packaging and it's edible

James Piper: So I first came across KNOTPL a long time ago, under a different name. Actually. Ever since then I've kind of been thinking about it because I just think it's an incredible product. So a long time ago I ran the London Marathon. That was like 2012. And I ran Paris a couple of years before that. So, 2010. And for me I just remember kind of the difference between these two races. It was really interesting because Paris, they gave us like fruit, like, which was quite funny because they gave us half bananas. And then literally you'd run along if you were towards the back, which of course I'm not, I'm not the front. And you'd be running through like hundreds of banana skins like this just mar. Stupid. Just of all the things to throw on the ground, I'm not sure I'd pick banana skins. But, the interesting thing for me is it was like natural fruit. And then I did London and it was like sports gels and all these kind of things. And those sports gels were all in most plastic sachets and you're throwing them to the side, you're thinking, this is terrible. You know, like, this is before I got into, you know, quite the detail of environment. I wasn't thinking about it. But with hindsight, I'm looking back at it going, wow, that was really bad. And so, you know, I'll always remember this time in 2018 where I had the sustainability director from Lucasade giving me a call and asking me about, these pods. And I'm not sure what to call them. I know you've kind of named them after the noise you make, the surprise. So it's like.

Pierre Paslier: So we call them, but it's like o. Oh. So this is the natural sound of curiosity.

James Piper: Okay, nice. And these just for Listeners who don't know where they are and you'll be able to google them or I'm not going to try and put the picture on the podcast because that didn't work last time. But these are like little pods made of seaweed packaging. And when we say CB packaging I mean we need people to be thinking it's like it looks like, looks like but isn't plastic. Right. So it's clear, looks like plastic. Crucially in this example it's edible. So what you had done was taken a little shot of Leucasade, put it in a bit of seaweed packaging and people could eat the whole thing and it would give them that shot of Lucusade and then they could carry on running. Is that basically the product?

Pierre Paslier: Yeah. So, we maybe like a big bit of backstory on how we came to do this. So I used to be a plastics packaging engineer. I was working for L'eal, the cosmetic company, making shampoo butles and cream jars in the hundreds of millions. all that singularose plastic ending up inevitably kind of like somewhere probably like uncontrolled in the environment. So kind of like had the feeling that there would be something better to do, something more exciting to do, for me. And I quit my job, came to study am master at Imperolage where I met my co founder Rodrigo. And at that point we hadn't planned to create a startup or get back into packaging. We just wanted to explore and experiment. And so we had this slightly crazy idea of creating something that felt more like a fruit than a synthetic industrial container. And that idea of like a fruit like packaging is really what we kind of like managed to create with these little bubbles. So if you think of it, it is a bit like a transparent

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Pierre Paslier: energy gel filled tomato that you can eat all at once. So like a cherry tomato for the tiny ones. We didn't have access to a lab, we didn't have access to any of the kind of like typical equipment for developing standard polymers. So we started in our kitchen and because we had to cook the next meal in our kitchen, we could only introduce in our kitchen edible materials. So from the start there was this constrained. We can't use anything that's goingna be nasty because otherwise we're go going toa kill ourselves and our flatmates. And the interesting thing is that we try to look at all sorts of natural edible materials that might have been used in the food industry from like tapioca seeds for bubble tea or some of the kind of like Extract from roots, some gums, all sorts of things that are actually used in the food industry, in everyday products. And the one thing that really kind of like got us really interested was the technique that was invented in the 1940s by Uniler for making fake caviar. If you've ever had those like fake fish eggs, those tiny little kind of like droplets.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh yeah, I can imagine it. Yeah, yeah, I know the thing, it.

Pierre Paslier: Is basically the technology that we started with, it is surprisingly the encapsulation of a little droplet of fish flavoured water in a membrane made from seaweed. And so when we saw this we were like, oh wow, how cool is this? Like how does it work? And because it's all kind of like existing technology, the patentss have long expired. You can read online how those technologies were kind of like developed and so on and so forth. We got ourselves on some of the seaweed extracts that are used for making this fake car and in the kitchen we started to make tiny little droplets and then bigger ones and then bigger ones and eventually we were like, wow, we can make them of any size we want and we can fill them with not fish flavoured water but like with energy gel, with juice, with espresso, martinis, whatever you want. And so this idea that you would have something that is made from seaweed that is edible, that contains a liquid was super interesting to us. It really fit that brief that we had of making a man made fruit. And from there we're like, okay, so it's pretty cool but it doesn't last very long. It's actually kind of like still quite like seaweed. There's lots of things that are unrefined about it. Where could it make sense? And actually marathons and running events was a, ah, perfect application because there's tens of thousands of runners that are going to use these bottles and cups in just one day. So we got really excited about this and started doing like little runs in London and then bigger ones and eventually got the attention of Lucazzade and then Half marathon and then eventually the London Marathon in 2019.

So packaging sometimes needs a barrier. And today you've got three main types of coatings

James Piper: And so your technology now then, so you've used it as like a pod, you know, and we can imagine what that looks like and people can Google that. And then you've sort of moved into like liners and so I'm just kind of interested in what that looks like. So packaging sometimes needs a barrier. We've sort of touched a little bit on it. But just to give some examples, you've got Like a coffee cup. So a coffee cup is cardboard. But when you add moisture to it, that cardboard won't survive and it won't survive long enough for the drink or it will get ruined. So what you do is you put a plastic liner in and we'll all be kind of familiar with that. it's that liner that we're imagining. So that's what you're replacing, is that right?

Pierre Paslier: That coating for takeay food containers for example, is actually a big user of plastic. And that plastic, when it gets stuck into cardboard is really a nightmare in end of life. So it felt particularly appropriate that we could replace that thin layer of plastic for take away food boxes. Because one then you could enable all sorts of positive end of life. You could recycle that cardboard, you can compost the full products. but more importantly those are also the types of packaging that I used on the go where you have relatively little chance of capturing all of it. And if it ends up in nature then you're actually not losing in nature this indestructible material that is plastic. And so the feeling that we could put in the hands of people something that is like so natural that it will never create forever waste was very, very relevant and important. And so that coating on cardboard became a big objective for us to develop and to scale up. And through like years of R and D and a lot of work, we actually found that we could apply it on the very same machines that apply today. The other kind of synthetic coatings.

Robbie Staniforth: oh, and is that like a spray it on type thing?

Pierre Paslier: Yeah. So actually there's quite a few ways to apply it, but one of the ones that is quite cool, it'like literally a curtain. So the cardboard wheels, they actually run through a curtain of this seaweed varnish and then it gets dried at the surface and then you've got this coated cardboard. And so that was quite magic to be able to kind

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Pierre Paslier: apply it on existing factories that didn't have to kind of like invest in capex and could start really producing these things in the millions. And so that fels like a big opportunity for impact. And especially I think when we started we ourselves were not educated, consumers. We didn't know what was out there. Most people will just assume that it's just cardboard but actually there is this thin layer of coating. And so we wanted to learn what was used in the industry. And today you've got three main kind of like types of coatings, used, for those applications or like barrier Properties that are provided by technical solutions. So the first one is your plastics and bioplastics. So that's like P.E. or like a planand de arrved version like a pla. But those are materials that don't exist in nature. And so if you don't kind of like treat them particularly well in a mind controlled environment, you will end up releasing something that will break down into microplastics, pollute for hundreds of years kind of like the natural environment. So that didn't feel like it was a great option. The second one for especially like the pulp moulded products, those bassas and of like containers and so on those they actually use something called pfas, those kind of like forever chemicals that are in many ways even worse than plastic because they are like carcinogenic, they are kind of like like linked to reproductive health kind like issues. So those are hopefully going to slowly be banned in the European Union and the uk. But today all of those containers rely on this to hold the food and the kind grease from those meals. And the last one that was really frustrating is basically when the industry realised that having a thick shiny layer of plastic inside the cardard was not so appealing to consumers. What they did is that they ground up the plastic in microplastics that they apply at the surface of those cardboard kind of like items, in a mixture with water. They evaporate the water and the microplastic remains kind of stuck to the surface.

Robbie Staniforth: And it sits on the layer.

Pierre Paslier: And it sits on the layer.

Robbie Staniforth: That's because what the shininess makes it look oily and undesirable or something. So they're trying to hide the fact that the plastic is there.

Pierre Paslier: And the main thing is that usually you can't recycle very easily. cardboard that has a film that is laminated onto the surface of the cardboard.

Pierre Paslier: But those kind of like solution providers, they were like if we don't make it a layer but just kind of like plastic dust, you'll be able to get your fibres back. So potentially you can recycle the carbolt. But the terrible thing about this is that every time those containers that are called aro dispers of coatings. So those aqueroous kind of like mix of microplastics that are applyied on cardboard. Well when you recycle them, yes, you get the fibres back. That's great. You've kind of like filtered out the fibre kind of like by kind of like musshhing everything in water. But all that microplastics, it goes straigh in the wastewater of those paper mills into our rivers and our oceans. And that micropastic is going to be there for hundreds of years. So those are micropastic bombs that today are kind of like sold as like plastic free oregradable or recyclable. So there's a lot of kind of like misrepresentation of what's used. And that's why we felt it was particularly appropriate to develop more solutions that are nature based and that are kind of like using bio benign materials like seaweed. and that's an area of packaging that has been growing very fast. I mean like Covid was supercharging like all of those delivery platforms and so on. Now there's just a lot of places where you'll be served in a disposable container. So we are kind of addicted to that lifestyle. And the thing is most of it comes with plastic. So hopefully we can show that there's a way of doing without the plastic and using seee that.

James Piper: We'll come back to your view on plastic free in a second because I've got some questions on that.

Could you make a plastic bottle with your technology today

But just in terms of your product mix, so you're in plastic liners. So we've got things like trays, so like takeaway trays. you've got coffee cups that we've talked about. And I'm just quite interested in why you then couldn't you use that technology? Well I guess the question is could you make a plastic bottle with your technology today?

Pierre Paslier: With the technology that we have? No. like we're still in the early days of what's possible to do with seaweed. one of the funny things about plastic is it was actually invented in Hackney Week where our kind of like office is based in 1866 by Alexander Parkx. And it's benefited from 150 years of crazy investments all around the world. Trillions of dollars, like thousands and thousands of PhDs that have turned it from a horrible petrochemical kind of compound into the thing that we write everything in our daily lives. So to think that we could kind of like go much further do we see with if we invest in it is actually very

00:25:00

Pierre Paslier: feasible. But we've got to start where we are. And today where we found like the best application is for relatively short consumption cycles. Places where in a way plastic is very overkill. and in a way food service is a perfect example of that, because you need to have something that resists to the oil and the grease and the moisture of the food, but only for a few hours, a few days. And so that's where we feel that like first generation is going to work best.

James Piper: So your liner is just suitable for a few days. It's not something that could sit on a shelf for a long time because of the way it breaks down.

Seaweed is not the best at holding liquids for very long time

So I'm intrigued as to a product I know you've launched which is a pipette filled with oil for like pizzas. So like imagine you go into, I don't know, I don't know who you're working with, but I'll just say Pizza Express. And they have those little pipettes for oils that you can add to your pizza, but that must last a much longer time. So how does that work?

Pierre Paslier: So basically what seaweed, is not the best at doing is holding liquids, that are kind of like high in water content for a very long time. But actually other liquids that don't contain water can actually be held for much longer. So oil, which doesn't really evaporate, that can have a two years, three year shelf life, but a bit like a, fruit, like a tomato or an apple that you would liveave on your kind of like kitchen counter and you would dry over time and shrivel. Our seaweed has a certain level of permeability which is what makes it so naturally biodegradable. That essentially doesn't kind of like hold liquids for three years in shelf life, for kind like retail applications, for example. And that's why today we really focus on those applications that are on the go because those feel like we can really replace that plastic.

There is a difference between natural polymers and plastic polymers

Robbie Staniforth: So when it comes to your plastic, or the replacement of plastic, what's the fundamental difference between the two? Can you explain that? Not just for listeners, for me, I don't quite understand it because I know that your technology sits outside the single Use Plastics Directive in the eu, so it's not chemically modified. So therefore it is not a plastic. So can you just try and explain for the layperson what is the difference?

Pierre Paslier: It's been really interesting. The last like four or five years have been incredibly kind clarifying on the question of what is and is in plastic. Especially, in the European Union there's a lot of new legislations like the Sindus Plastic Directive that have actually taken a Sten, and it's quite a high bar kind of like definition that the EU has adopted. So essentially like the singulus plastic Directive. What it says is there is a difference between natural polymers and plastic polymers. The world is built of lots of different materials, lots of them are polymers and nature is full of them. Like cellulose inrieses is a polymer. and so they needed to create a, a very clear kind of like test for what makes a polymer natural or plastic. And so they came up with those two criteria. So the first one is the polymerization needs to happen in nature. So basically you can't start with monomers and build those in like a human factory and get a polymer and consider it non, plastic. So you need to use polymers that are already created by nature. And then if you take those polymers that are starting in nature, you cannot chemically modify them. So they need to be in the same chemical state that nature created them in the first place. And so if you respect those two criteria, you are no longer considered or ah, you are not considered a plastic polymer. You are a natural, non chemically modified polymer. And in that case all of those kind regulations and taxes and implications that are attached to the plastic bucket don't apply to you. And NOTPLA actually became the first example validated of such a natural polymer. So what happened is in the Netherlands they introduced a tax on takeaway food containers that contained plastic. And it was the first time that actually a government had to answer a bit the question who's go goingna have to pay the tax? And actually who shouldn't pay the tax? Because if you listen to the marketrs, there were loads of companies that were saying that they were plastic free and therefore didn't have to pay the tax.

Robbie Staniforth: And so they needed that strict definition to make sure the right people were paying the tax. And so I think what you're sort of saying there is if it's not chemical, is it then a physical modification? Explain. If you're not chemically modifying this thing and it occurs in nature, I presume you're physically doing stuff to it to make it suitable for packaging.

Pierre Paslier: So what we do is that we extract and purify the part of the seaweed that holds it all together. This gelatinous part of the seaweed that provides the structure, in nature it's mixed with all of the cellulose and the tannins and all the things that make seaweed green and smelly. But we can remove those and separate them from the actual polymer. And once we have that polymer

00:30:00

Pierre Paslier: actually purified, we can form a kind of like sheet or a coating and surprisingly like we can get Something that is transparent, that is not smelling and that has all those properties but that feels as plasticky as a piece of seaweed that you pick up on the beach. That actually feels remarkably plasticy when you think about it.

James Piper: And so when we talk about plastic free, I mean we talked before on this podcast I gave the analogy of like solar because solar plastic free really winds me up because solar is a source of electricity and we call it electricity. We don't say this is not electricity. And a lot of these plastic free three companies are just talking about the source of their plastic. They're saying hey, this isn't made from oil, it'made bioast. It's made from a plant, therefore it's not plastic. And I'm like, well that is the equivalent of saying that solar power is not electricity because it came from a renewable source. You know, I often see Chris packets that have written on them plastic free. And then it can't go in the bin, in the recycling bin even though it's plastic free. And it can't go in the. It's got to be composted but it's got to go in an industrial compost process which we can't use. So I'm just trying to get my head around how people perceive these markets because they're really complicated. We're going to do more episodes on Bioplastic, but while you're here it'd be great to just hear your views on this plastic free movement and what that actually means and how we could potentially make that better.

Greenwashing solutions that claim to be plastic free prevent others from innovating

Pierre Paslier: So back to the kind of like this example in the Netherlands. so the government had to answer this question of who had to pay the tax and who was exempt from paying the tax. So they put together like a group of academics and experts who really kind of like picked up samples from the market and run a number of tests on those kind of samples to try to find any chemical modification or any kind of trace of plastic. And it was a really hard question to answer. In a way it was like the first time that a government had to answer such a specific question. Surprisingly they found through kind of like hundreds and hundreds of materials that they analysed that NOTPLA was the first and only solution at that time in October, to have kind of actually no chemical modification and no kind of like plastic in it. And the really shocking thing is that when you think about it like the market was filled with solutions that have all of these claims. And up until then they had never been a Government that had kind of like done the job of checking what people were claiming. So it was basically like free for all. Marketeer could just get on and like claim whatever they wanted because there was no rep perussions. And the impact of this is that it created zero incentive for anyone to actually create a true plastic free solution. And NOTPLA was one of the where kind of like crazy people to actually raise a lot of money and spend all that rnd d upront to try to create something that is better than the rest, but actually doesn't claim that k kind of claim any of those differentiation factors. and I think that now that we have this type of decisions that have been taken by governments to cheque in, we're going to see a lot more innovation. So the impact of those solutions when they claim to be plastic free is that they prevent others from innovating in this space. And so greenwashing is the reason why we don't have more alternatives today on the market.

One of the issues with combostable plastic is the route for disposal

James Piper: Thank you. It's great to get your insight. And obviously we've just done an episode about compostable plastic. That's what we've talked about, recently. One of the issues with combostable plastic is the route for disposal and the potential for microplastics and all those things we've already talked about. So I guess you've addressed some of that by saying, well look, ours isn't plastic so it's not going to break down to microplastic. It's going to break down to what is essentially seaweed, seaw, which is great. So we know that it meets that standard. And on your website you talk about it disappearing within six weeks. And I guess part of me is thinking, well, I've got to try and find some. I'm going to get a tray, I know where you're serving it and I'm going to get a train, I'm going to put it in my compost and I'm going to tell you what happens in six weeks. Does the whole thing break down or is it just the plastic liner that you're referring to there?

Pierre Paslier: No. So, we say four to six weeks, that's in soil, without any human intervention, no temperature control, no special microbe kind of environment, but essentially like the polysaccharides that we use from seaweed, they have been on this planet for a billion years. So so many different microbes know that this is food and will love to kind of munch on it to create the next form of life. And that's what makes it so biodegradable. Just like the peel of a fruit. That is no problem for nature to kind of like turn into the next form of life.

00:35:00

Pierre Paslier: Using natural polymers, is the way to go. And so, because cellulose is also a natural polymer, it will break down very quickly. So both the cardboard and the coating of seaweed are, ah, essentially like a good match because they are both polysaccharides that are, naturally found in the environment.

James Piper: Right, I'm going to put something in my compost bin. I'm going to report back to the listeners of Talking Rubbish how long it took to disappear. I'll keep an eye on it. So in soil, no human intervention. That's it. That's all I need to do.

Pierre Paslier: Exactly.

Robbie Staniforth: What about in the ocean then? What would happen if it ended up there?

Pierre Paslier: So again, like, the cool thing is when I was, in Cape Town, I was actually diding in the kelp forest.

James Piper: Don't tell me. You had some in your pocket. You had some in your pocket, you got out, it was gone.

Pierre Paslier: So the ocean is filled with kind of like millions and millions of tonnes of seaweed already. And so the environment in the ocean is using that seaweed as food for boosting kind of like the fisheries. So when it ends up in the ocean, it actually is exactly like the same state than the seaweed that is still kind of like growing in there. and so, so that's allowed us to do some really cool, tests. Like recently we won, a prize where one of the criteria for, being considered a winner was to pass a simulation of the gut of a grey whale to see what happens when you're actually kind of like left in the environment, in the ocean. And so, coming out as a winner was a great validation. It was a novel kind of like, test, but it shows that when you use something that is so natural and so kind of like abundant in the ocean, you really have no problem in any type of end of life. And often that's a bit how we approach things today. A lot of materials that are put on the market, they have one good end of life and, everything else is a disaster. And our approach to packaging is if we're going to release something in the environment, we should never take the risk of releasing something that's going to be a problem. And so there will be some slightly better kind of like, end of life, whether it's composting or recycling, because you get something back that value, that has value. But even if it ends up in landfill, or if you eat it or if you lose it in nature, none of these things are ever going to create a problem.

James Piper: I mean, whenever I hear about these new technologies, and this is a pretty cool one, I must admit, but whenever I hear about these new technologies, my concerns are always scale. Because everyone talks about edible packaging or. And then you're like, ye, but you try applying that to Starbucks, right? It's just the scale that we consum consume single use packaging is just unbelievable. And while I agree that we should never hold innovation or we shouldn't look at ways of solving those problems as consumers, consumers use a lot of product and packaging and some of these technologies just can't work at that scale. So, right, Pierre, I'm going to pretend I'm the CEO of Starbucks. I'm over in Seattle. Although he doesn't live in Seattle, does he? Famously in his Miami beach, whoever he is. I'm the CEO of Starbucks. Gotta catch a flight. This is very political, this. We haven't.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, Gosh. Where are you going, James? This is brave, Stu.

James Piper: I don't think we're going to get Starbucks on now.

Sal says seaweed has huge potential as a sustainable packaging alternative

CEO of Starbucks. And I'm phoning you pre and I'm saying, right, I want to put your seaweed in every cup. What are you feeling like? What is the opportunity to scale? How long would that take? What would that feel like? And just I really want to experience that. You going through that. Sal, that was cool.

Pierre Paslier: It was actually like one of the very first questions we had for ourselves back in the kitchen. We were like, wow, so cool. Are we about to create the next environmental disaster? And so when we started to do a little bit of digging on seaweeds, we just realised that it was unbelievable from like a renewable perspective. So some species of seaweed can grow up to a metre per day. Like when I was in Cape Town, there's one species there that grows up to 40 centimetres per day. It is one of the fastest growing organism on the planet. So nothing beats that kind of growth speed in nature. So that's certainly the material we should be using instead of the fossilised seaweed from the last kind of like 100 million years that actually is kind of like finite and we are running out of really quickly. And so when we kind of like decided to look into this as like a proper startup, we run some numbers to be able to kind of really put it in the perspective of, okay, if the world really kind like works with this seaweed packaging, what are we looking at? And so the first thing that was really interesting is that seaweed was already used in all of those different applications. So we're not starting from like 0 tonne per year created of kind of like seaweed. Today the world already used about 40 million tonnes of seaweed

00:40:00

Pierre Paslier: for all of these other applications. So we're not starting from scratch. There's already like a solid supply chain for all of these other things.

Robbie Staniforth: Gosh, had no idea. That's crazy.

Pierre Paslier: But if we were to really kind of like just for checking that we don't have a problem here, let's assume that we solve the like the plastic bottle problem for contact with water for long shelf lives and so on. Let's replace every single use plastics in the world with n pla seaweed material. Right For a seconds we would need to farm 0.06% of the ocean to create all of that material. So that just shows the immense opportunity to use seaweed for something like packaging. Bearing in mind that we don't claim to have a solution for every you use plastics in the world. Far from that, we're gonna have to use a few other materials and we're goingna have to be clearver about how we combine all of the different solutions together. But seaweed certainly can play that role of being a natural disposable solutions in places where reusable'work where we don't want to have to deal with plastic. And I think that he has a huge opportunity compared to any other biomass. There's lots of people getting excited about corn and peas and all sorts of kind of like agriculture derived kind of like protein mushrooms. But none of these scale to the level of seaweed and they all require freshater fertiliser, GMOs, pesticides. Seaweed grows in the ocean without using any of those. You can't control the ocean so you can't put fertiliser because the next wave has taken it and you've just wasted your ferilizer. So from origin of kind of like the material perspective, it's incredibly interesting to grow that versus all of the other alternatives that are floating around.

James Piper: And thank you for reminding me to ask you your opinion about corn in credit or debit cards. I think we've just heard it so I forgot to ask.

Robbie Staniforth: That was supposed to be the intro of the chat, not the end.

Dex won the Earth shop prize in 2022 and as we're recording the 2024 prize has wrapped up

Okay, so, so you won the Earth shop prize in 2022 and as we're recording this just after the 2024 prize has wrapped up. Just tell us, how it felt to win.

Pierre Paslier: Honestly, it was unbelievable. so the ceremony was happening live in Boston, but we were like in London with like a earpiece. We didn't have kind of like the video feed, it was just audio and we didn't know what was gon toa happen. So we were like completely in the dark of whether there was like a BBC crew like filming our reaction life, whether we had one or not. So like first of all we didn't know who were going to be the people announcing the award. And so when they say like, and now David Beckham is going to announce the build of WestPR World Australia were like, oh my God, how cool would it be to have Dex kind of like announce there? so, he's doing all the presentations, nouminate solutions and so on. And honestly like when I hear davidame and the winner is not pla. We just lost it completely. It was like we were with the team jumping up and down. It was like super bold moment. So very, very special.

Robbie Staniforth: What a moment.

Pierre Paslier: And the ear price has been a huge acceleration point for us because we were starting to have a real industrial solution but we didn't have like that much visibility. And also it's easy to discount those innovations as being still very risky, not very proven. But all of a sudden it gave us a lot, lot of credibility and a lot of reason for people to return our calls really. And so since then we've been able to really grow some amazing partnerships. we're now used in all of the stadiums in the UK that are kind run by a campus group. So that's like the 02 Twicenum Oval, like Aston Villa, the favourite club of Prince William. And so seeing the product being used in at scale, I think this year we'relacing close to 20 million singleus plastics. That feels like we're really on track to have that impact that we, we wanted to have from the first day in the kitchen.

James Piper: Just incredible. Robbie and I have won what sustainability packaging awards and things like that, but I can't, I don't think we've won a million.

Pierre Paslier: It's another Sustainable Packaging awards.

Robbie Staniforth: Well, it's the big one.

James Piper: It's the big one when it comes with a million pounds. Right. I mean that's nice, that helps your business.

Your seaweed paper has been used to cover microphones at awards

One of the products we haven't talked about is your seaweed paper, which I'm trying to understand how it works. So let's part that we'll come to a second how that works. But they were Using it to like cover the microphones on the catwalk when they were interviewing people. It had your seaweed paper around it and I noticed they were carrying like almost like clipboards. Weren't they? All like the awards were written on seaweed paper. So that's amazing. But tell us about that product Robbie.

Pierre Paslier: When you were asking like what is it, this material, what is it made of? So it is the gelatin part of the seaweed. But obviously seaweed is not just this gelatin partot.

00:45:00

Pierre Paslier: There's all the leftovers. So for quite a few years we've been kind of saying, okay, we just want to focus on those kind of like on those gelatin polysaccharides. And we've been creating our own waste. Basically all of that biomass that doesn't kind of like contain the gelatiness was going to bin. So in our own efforts of circularity we're like there's gotta be something to do with all that waste, all that biomass. And so when we put it to be analysed in the lab we realised that it contained a lot of cellulose. And actually like, interestingly the cellulose of seaweed is quite different to the cellulose in trees. So basically in trees you've got cellulose stuck to lignin. And lignin is what makes a cheap paper kind of go yellow and break down quite kind of like quickly. So a lot of the efforts from the paper industry is to actually separate those two with chemicals and with kind of like all sorts of processes. And so when you realise that there's no lignin in the seaweed cellulose it means that we were like wow, we could actually make paper with this. And so we started engaging with some of the paper mills that allowed us to kind of like bring our smelly waste and pour it on there. They are like multi million pound machines. And to our surprise we were able to do some paper. So we've been able to kind produce a range of different grammaage of paper through this this process which we always try to find a nice way to be associated with some of those royal moments. So when we realised that there was going to be a green carpet we were like hey, what's go going toa be on the mic? And so we did a little box with a huge notot pla logo next to the Ori prize kind of like logo. and that's been really cool to have like Prince William and Heidi Klum and all of the kind of like, presenters talk about theal Price not realising that they are being branded, not blocked.

James Piper: We'll see that on a billboard soon, I'm sure. Just Prince William holding the nototpl microphone. It was amazing. Your giveaway gift is a book, Seaweed Revolution. Super excited about that. What would be really cool is to get you and Rodrigo to sign some of this seaweed paper and tuck that in the book. Are you happy to do that?

Pierre Paslier: Absolutely, I did, yeah.

James Piper: o. That would be so good.

To win this book, you just need to follow rubbishpodcast on Instagram

Okay, so. And I didn't say at the start, but if you want to win this, I mean, isn't it great? I didn't say the star because that means they would have had to listen all the way through. They'd be thinking, how do I get my hands on this book? Yeah. And now they've heard there's like, you know, when you're like the next. Well, what do we compare you to? You know, when you're as big as Apple, everyone's go going to be like, look, I've got this like, you know, seaweed paper with their signatures on. That would be amazing. So, to get an opportunity to win this book, you just need to go over to our Instagram, which is rubbishpodcast, and like the post of Pierre where we launched this episode. If you just like that post and follow us, that gives you the opportunity to win this book. So, yeah, thank you so much, Pierre.

If you had an environmental superpower, what would it be and how would

And we always ask one question at the end, which is, if you had an environmental superpower, what would it be and how would you use it? The last one was my absolute favourite, which was if you do something bad for the environment, you just develop an itch. And then depending on how bad your thing was for the environment is how long you will itch for and how hard you will itch. And honestly, I just think that's great. So, no pressure, but that's your next after that.

Pierre Paslier: So, maybe mine is a little bit kind of like more down to earth, but it really is a superpower that I think exists in this kind of like Earth. all of these moments of change where we've been able to bring our products to the markets. They are down to internal champions from those organisations, from just Levy. the. Where there is someone who's like, I'm go goingna make it happen. And that someone could be any of the listeners of the podcast who just have to be like, wow, I'm going to navigate the very complex ecosystem that my company is kind of like for Those innovators to find a way to make this a reality. And those people sometimes don't realise, but it is a superpower to actually kind make this possible because there's lots of friction points, there's lots of things that are very hard from the outside to understand for something to happen. So my superpower would be to kind of make sure that all the people who have this potential superpower go and use it and become internal champions for innovation in their own organisation.

Robbie Staniforth: Wow. You are the superpower guys. That's brilliant. Thanks.

James Piper: F genuinely do love the products and I'm fascinated to see where you go next with it and how you can get from a liner, which is super important, and where you're having real impact into other materials, other types of plastic. That's going to be so exciting to see. And just already, just even hearing you talk about CEED paper, I'm like, I know these guys have the brains, to work out to solve all these other issues. So thank you so much for joining us. And I just know our listeners will have just been fascinated by this and have learned so much. And it follows on so nicely from our compostisode where, you know, to be honest,

00:50:00

James Piper: we find it quite hard to recognise the environmental stuff around could possible because it's difficult to see Ann market for that product. It's difficult to see how it works in our current society. So to create a product that just replaces what is already out there. I think what we need to see in our innovations, particularly to get them working at scale, is products that replace existing consumerism without anyone really noticing. And I think that's what you've done. You've created a barrier, a liner that sits in a tray or a cup, a coffee cup, and no one would know it's there. And the fact that you can then just recycle that item because it's not plastic, the fact that you can then put that in recycling, presumably coffee cups with your liner in could go in the recycling bin and trays with your liner could go in the recycling bin. That is, I see you nodding, so that's greatre.

Pierre Paslier: I mean, and knowing that like recycling, it's about what you get back, but also it's about what you lose. And so, often we really focus on like getting back x percent of fibres. But, like, what is it that we are discharging into reverse? And I think today does that is not taken enough into account and that leads to some solutions that are enabling some of those fibres to be kind of, recovered while actually kind of actively releasing that microplastic. And I think we need to be very careful about what we're los in nature. And I think plastic is such an alien material that we have a responsibility to never letting it enter in nature because when it's lost it'there for hundreds of years. So using natural kind materials, we can actually lose things without creating a problem. And that's the value of those, natural polymers.

James Piper: I have every faith it's going to work. I just love the product and I think what you're doing is great. And thank you so much for listening. Thank you so much for joining us, Pierre. And just as a reminder, if you want to get hold of us, our social media is rubbishpodcast. Our, email address is talkingruubbishpodcastmail.comt. you can WhatsApp us by getting the link through, our Instagram or Facebook. And our link tre available in our show show notes. Pierre, thank you so much for joining us today.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, thanks, Pierre.

Pierre Paslier: Thanks for having me.

James Piper: Been absolutely amazing. See you all next week. Bye.

00:52:14