21. How sustainable is having a baby?

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James Piper: Hello. Welcome to Talking Rubbish, a weekly podcastving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and one sided stories. In this very exciting baby special episode, we will discuss snappy recycling, find out how sustainable it is to actually have a baby, explore whether wet wipes, are rubbish or not. And I have a personal question for Robbie. I'm Joe's Piper, a very, very new father. And I'm joined by Robbi Stanifortff, my far from rubbish friend. Hi, Robbie.

Robbie Stanniforth: Hi, James. I'm glad you didn't say and very old father Robbie book.

James Piper: I think that was my original notes. I actually, as I was going through that, I was like, oh, I've changed this to be much more polite than I remember I did to have my very old father friend. So if you're listening to this, it means that I have just become a father. That's exciting. Yes.

Robbie Stanniforth: Congratulations, James.

James Piper: Thank you so much. It's a bit weird because we're recording this obviously before because while Elie is normally very forgiving, I'm not sure she would be that happy about having microphones in the hospital. So we're actually recording this like a month before the due date. But if this is correct, if the baby has come at the time that I'm expecting the baby to come, this is possibly episode 21. And then you can sort of gauge around whatever episode number this is where we are.

Robbie Stanniforth: I reckon we're looking at 22 then. Isn't the first one's always late? That's the classic thing. And from my experience, that was true.

James Piper: Super, super excited and it got me thinking all about the sustainability of having a baby and, particularly nappies. Oh my goodness. The discussion about whether to do disposable, reusable nappies has taken up a lot of time.

Robbie Stanniforth: Oh, really? Has that been Flo? It usually floats around the NCT classes, that discussion.

James Piper: Oh, yeah. So we've just finished NCT and that has been a big topic. Anyway, we'll talk about, ah, that. That's going to be our rubbish process, I think. Nappies. We'll talk about that in a second. We appreciate that this episode might not be for everyone. You might not want to hear about the sustainability of having a baby or all those kind of things. So if you're not interested in this, feel free to skip over this episode and I'll be back next week. I don't think I'm going to have much of a paternity. I think we're quite far ahead in our episode. So I suspect we'll still be going weekly, won't we, Roie?

Robbie Stanniforth: Well, I mean, we'll wait and see. James, you seem very buoyant about the fact you're going to have time on your hands. But, we'll wait and see. No, I'm sure we'll keep up with it.

James Piper: Yes. Irrationally confident, I think is probably the phrase. I sort of survive on quite little sleep at the momat. I've had like three hours sleep last night, so know if I sound good now. That's like you. That's basically what it's going to be like in a few weeks time.

Robbie Stanniforth: Very true. I don't think you'd survive the backlash on social media for us missing weeks as well. I think people have got into quite a nice routine of these. Dropping on a Thursday.

James Piper: Yes. Although, you know, instead of bring Baldy back, we could just have, you know, make Baldy permanent. Just you talking to yourself for an hour.

Robbie Stanniforth: Nobody wants to hear that.

So we were just having a joke in the office about baby names

James Piper: So we were just having a joke in the office, weren't we, about baby names. last week when we were talking about this episode and I just. We were talking about could you name your child, you know, after packaging? And it just reminded me of something I did when I first joined the company that we worked for. Robbie Eco Shtyty. I thought it would be quite funny to give the packaging types personalities and give them names and so honestly, it just cast my mind. I know I. It cast my mind back to my 22 year old self who was like naming. What did we have? We had Pam Aper for paper.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah. P Aper.

James Piper: So we had Pam Aper. Her personality was a bit flat. We had Gary Larss for Gaff. For glass.

Robbie Stanniforth: What was his personality like? He was a heavy drinker.

James Piper: Yeah. A bit rigid. Aluminium. Aluminium. He was a.

Robbie Stanniforth: That's the best one. Come on. That can't be beat.

James Piper: O Uinium. Yeah, he was a shiny fellow.

Robbie Stanniforth: for the American listeners though, don't we have to rename for O?

James Piper: And what do we have for Steel? Steve Teal. And for wood we had Wendy Ood. And I just, I mean, honestly, if you've listened all the way through this, you'll be thinking I've forgotten what they were talking about at the beginning. So, you'll be pleased to hear none of those are, our proposed baby names.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, I would be a little bit worried if your, son or daughter to be was called Al/inium Piper.

James Piper: Obviously, as I'm having a kid, I'm going to be watching lots of kids films and was excited about that, aren't you?

Robbie Stanniforth: I could sell.

James Piper: Yeah. I'm a big fan of Disney already. And so I was prepping myself for this journey I'm about to go on and I thought, I'll watch Toy Story. But I picked my favourite Toy Story. I watched Toy Story 3.

00:05:00

James Piper: Toy Story 3. Yeah. Which is where they go to the preschool.

Robbie Stanniforth: The nursery. Yeah, the preschool.

James Piper: Ah. I've literally just done a nursery tour. And it was like, exactly the same as that Toy Story 3 moment, you know, where they're all like, destroying the toys. I was like, oh, it'so. This is what happened to Toy Story 3. but Toy Story 3 ends at a murf.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yes, it does. Yeah. Yeah, I know.

James Piper: Absolutely amazing. So El and I were watching Toy Story 3 and suddenly there's this scene where the toys are going down the convey belt and magnets are pulling out all the metal.

Robbie Stanniforth: That's right.

James Piper: I was like, oh, my good. We've just talked about this on the podcast. It's great.

Robbie Stanniforth: Oh, spoiler alert. I should say, shouldn't I?

James Piper: 'Been out. Well, it's been out for like 10 years. I think you're right.

Robbie Stanniforth: Okay. I'm on safe ground.

James Piper: Bruce Willis was dead all along. I think we're okay.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: Sorry if we just ruined. Well, we unnecessarily ruined the sixth centse there. Sorry.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, I mean, you're definitely, on, worse vibes than me.

James Piper: That was just despite that. Okay, right. And editions, and corrections. We can fit a couple of editions and corrections and I'm sure that are re. Timeless.

We have a bin spotter section on our website

and my first one is I got a picture sent to me from Denise. She sent me a picture of a bin. So I think maybe we'll call this section Bin Spotters. You know, if anyone out there spots a bin that's fun, got weird words on it or weird names or is missing something, just send it to us and we'll have, like a little bin spotter section. I think that would be quite good.

Robbie Stanniforth: Nice.

James Piper: Yeah. So Denise sent me a bin from the University of Cambridge. So obviously very intelligent, people using that bin. But I think they were expecting quite a lot because what was interesting is they had a food waste bin on one side and then a resource recovery bin on the other side. Now, resource recovery sounds a little bit like incineration to me, but I'm not sure. And what I found interesting about this bin is it said on the resource recovery side it had like, a list of things you shouldn't put in it. So it said no hazardous waste, no electrical items, no food waste, no liquid waste. And bringing it back to the baby episode, no nappies. So maybe it's not getting burnt. I think that does suggest it's getting sorted.

Robbie: I just wanted to know your thoughts on bins with no messaging

But I just wanted to know your thoughts, Robbie, on bins that have no messaging. Because often we see bins that say cans and bottles only or glass only, that typically we will see bins that say what you can put in because it's much easier for people to understand and remember messaging that is positive. and very rarely do I see a bin that says don't put these things in, but put everything else in. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on what you think that means.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, I think ultimately, it's easier to list the things you should put in because it's a small amount of target material ultimately that they're looking to recycle. Whereas to write out an exhaustive list of everything that you shouldn't put in, they could have added on top of, that list. Don't put shoes in this bin. Don't put used spectacles. Like, where would you end with the things? Don't put a chair in this bin.

James Piper: it's funny you say that someone had tried to put a chair in.

Robbie Stanniforth: What?

James Piper: No, I'm joking.

Robbie Stanniforth: You got me hook, line and sink at la.

James Piper: Well, thank you, Binpotters. That's great.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah.

You received some fan mail through the post; your address isn't public

So I suppose it's an addition or an interesting happening from the last few weeks. I received a letter through the post, fan mail through the post. So of course I was on guard straight away.

James Piper: I haven't received any. I mean, we haven't made my address public.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, your address.

James Piper: Your address isn't public. Yeah. So you received some fan mail.

Robbie Stanniforth: I thought it was fan mail because at the top it had my address on. Had the postage stamp. Didn't have my name, though. It just said rubbish or not question mark.

James Piper: This amic.

Robbie Stanniforth: I, picked this thing up and I'm like, okay, like slightly shaking, thinking, who the hell is this? And then I look closer at the writing, the handwriting, and I can see.

James Piper: That it's my dad bringing it back to fatherhood. And you know your dad. Big fan of the podcast and of YouTube.

Robbie Stanniforth: Big fan of both the podcast and YouTube and clearly the postal system in the UK. So I open up the envelope, to see what's inside. No note, literally no message. Nothing inside except for, like a deli. WRP packaging. You know how you would sort of wrap cheese if you went to the kind of cheese counter in the deli, that kind of stuff. I don't know whether he wants me to write back to him, to tell him whether it's rubbish or not because he's not sure which bin to put it in or whether it's a suggestion for the show. Well, it's going into the show now, so, possibly it was that, but I went ono WhatsApp messaged him and said it's got that plastic lining and quite a heavy plastic lining. So I wrote back than, thanks for your, post this morning. Thanks for your package this morning. Rubbish. And then he quigs a flash,

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Robbie Stanniforth: comes back, my dad's still African just like my mum, and says, look again. So I go back to it, start looking, and I can see there's some very slight perforations in the plastic. And you can quite easily peel the plastic lining from the paper. Relatively thick plastic lining that could go in the soft plastics, recycling bin to take back to local supermarket. And the paper was just flat paper that could go in my recycling bin at home. So unfortunately, cap in hand, he got to go back to my dad and say, ye, you got me. I can see him smiling smugly at home now, listening to this episode, which really infuriates me.

James Piper: Yeah. Now, so what, you're going to get a weekly postal delivery of some waste?

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah. So who knows what's coming next through the post, but, I look forward to it, dad. Thanks.

James Piper: Rubbish process.

Nappies can be recycled and it surprises people that they can

So, Robby, we have to go a little bit off topic here because normally with the rubbish process, we're sort of following a flow. You know, we do the sorting and recycling. We've done some collection, but we sort of follow a linear order. But because we have no idea where there s episodes s landing, we can't do that. What we thought might be worth doing is going through the process of recycling nappies. And I think it surprises people that nappies can be recycled because it just seems like a horrendous task, but they definitely can.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I know, from my time spent in Wales when I had a newborn, they were collecting nappies specifically as a segregated kind of waste in a bag and stuff.

James Piper: Was that this, scheme that we're going to talk about today was that nappy?

Robbie Stanniforth: I'm not sure whether it went to this scheme, to this nappy cycle scheme or not, but they were definitely collected in a separate, it was a yellow bag, from the general waste or the recycling.

Nappy Cycle in Bristol are trying to recycle disposable nappies

James Piper: Okay, well, let's talk about it. So what we're talking about here is disposable nappies. So your standard nappies that you would buy from a store like Pampers, a company called Pura, who make nappies, wipes, tissues, all sorts of things. They have partnered with Nappy Cycle who are based over in Wales to recycle nappies and fortunately for me, they decided that they were going to extend that trial outside of Wales into Bristol and they're going to do a year long trial in Bristol. O this is perfect timing. so we'll talk about the Bristol trial in a little bit but let's first talk about the actual process of recycling nappies. So I guess to start with, disposable nappies are a complex mix of materials. To make them work you obviously haveite you need to create a lot of absorbency. So they use a superabsorbent powder, they have a PPPE fibre, so polypropylene fibre, polyethylene fibre, bit of polyester, some cellulose fibre and as I say is superabsorbent powder. So we have really a very complicated mix of materials.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, that sounds like a lot of different types of plastics.

James Piper: It's about as bad as it gets all stuck together but that's what makes it work. You have to have those plastics. Other companies have tried to recycle nappies, they've struggled to make it viable. I seem to remember seeing a Dragon's den pitch like 10 years ago or something or for a friends in America like Shark Tank, that'the equivalent. And I'm sure I remember seeing a company who would doing nappy recycling. And I know that Pampers have tried to do a scheme, a couple of companies have tried to do pyrolysis which is that turning plastic back into oil. but very few have made it work. The nappy cycle one seems to be the one that is really sticking.

Robbie Stanniforth: Raoul. Yeah, I know that EU funded a project in Treviso in Italy. I think that was with Proctor and Gamble to try and, and I don't know whether that's still running. I haven't heard anything about it in the intervening of six or seven years since it got launched. It certainly hasn't scaled up and all see plants around the place, but it's great to hear that something's going on so close to home.

James Piper: So in terms of the process, how do you actually recycle a nappy? So you take it, you shred it down so you're literally putting it into a shredder like with other ps of plastic. You'd then put it through a wash process, a drying process, and you end up with clean material. And it sort of looks like shredded rags, you know, like if you, you know, you can imagine rags, shred them up. That's basically the material that you're ending up with at the end. I happen to know that nappy cycles started with incineration, so they started off incinerating that waste, energy, I think.

Robbie Stanniforth: That might have been at the time, this was way back in 2016 or 2017. That might have been where those yellow bags were going that I mentioned before.

James Piper: Oh, I see. And so now what they do, or what they do in the main is they take that blended plastic and cellulose fibres, they pelletize it, and then it's used in asphalt, so as a replacement to virgin cellulose fibre. So when you're making asphalt in road construction and things like that, you've got to use a cellulose because that cellulose prevents things like potholes. It stops the road breaking up, basically. It keeps it stuck together. And so they will now use recycled nappies in that process. They will use those fibres to do that. So it's a really good use for

00:15:00

James Piper: the process, for the fibres. You could take it a step further, which is something we've talked about, Robbie, on this podcast, and you could sort out those component parts, you could sort the plastics, the fibres, but there is a very limited end market for that and it's not worth as much money as if you just pelletize it and put it in roads. So to make this a sustainable scheme, I think they've really looked at how they get, you know, how they get rid of that material without it being incinerated.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, I imagine it's one of those. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good. If you just keep ploughing time and energy and effort into it, it makes it less and less economically viable. Certainly, if it's helping with potholes, that's generally going to be a popular thing, with the average person on the street.

James Piper: What's really interesting about nappies is once you've succeeded in your curbside collection, if you're a council and you've already sorted your food waste, your cardboard, your glass, your plastic, your metals, and you've got them all sorted in different bins, if you think about what's then left in your general waste bin, nappies are really the only organic waste that's left. They're the only waste that's left that is creating significant weight. So if we look at what happened in Wales, Whale, who are the second best recycler in the world, we talked about that in episode one. They had split out all these materials into different recycling bins and they were left with the nappies in the general waste. And they were like, if we collect up these nappies, we can take our recycling rate from 60% much higher and we can get to be the second best recycler in the world. And so that's where the government needs to step in and really, through simpler recycling, mandate collection of waste. And then what they will realise is what's left in the general bin needs to be separated as well. And the bulk of what's left in the general bin, if you've got a family, is nappies. So, as I say, they've started a trial in Bristol and I was really excited about this trial because it was for one year and obviously it crosses over with me having a baby. So I was like, okay, this is great, because I think I'm more likely to use disposable nappies than reusable nappies, unfortunately. And we'll talk about that in the trash talk when we talk about the sustainability of having a baby. But, you know, I think for ease and what I think I'm likely to do, I was probably more likely to use disposable on the assumption that I could get them recycled. And that was a really exciting part of this. So I signed up to the scheme and unfortunately I got an email back saying, sorry, we're not in. I can't remember what the email said. It was either we're not in your area or we were re at capacity.

Robbie Stanniforth: Oh, really? Okay.

James Piper: Which is a real shame. So I actually reached out to the company and said, you know, look, we're doing a recycling podcast. I'd like to talk about this scheme. I'd love to understand what the limitations are. Ah, what's not happening, and why I'm not able to sign up because you want to be recycling a million nappies in year one. So I was put in touch with the sustainability director at Pura, who's given me a lot of this information about how you recycle nappies. So thank you very much to Matt, who helped me out with this. and we had a good chat about this process. We had a good chat about what they're doing. Really the limitation for them at the moment is that they're currently, collecting those, the nappies and taking them back to Bristol Waste and Bristol Waste have given them a certain area to store the nappies in and the trial is such a success and people are what really want to sign up and they want it to grow, but that means they need more space at the Bristol Waste facility to store those nappies. That's the limiting factor. It's actually not number of households, it's not, collection points, it's just where they then store the nappies once they've been collected, before they're taken off for recycling. so, as you can imagine, that could be a pretty horrible container. I think Bristol Waste and the Environment Agency are taking it slow in terms of growing that. But it is my hope that very shortly I'll be part of the trial and if that's the case, then I will be reporting back on what I think of it.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, great. I think it's one of those things where it just highlights with any recycling, rubbish process. It's not just about the capacity in the final machine that recycles it. It's all the way through the train, the transport, the logistics and in this case, having capacity to store it.

James Piper: But I love these trials. I love that Wales has succeeded in nappy recycling and it's recognised the importance of it, it's recognised that local authorities need to fund it. I love that that's now come across the bridge and is being tried in Bristol. I really hope that grows quite rapidly and I hope the local authority get behind it because ultimately that's what needs to happen. It needs the local authority in Bristol Waste to say, this is part of what we should be collecting, because it's such a big waste stream. If you're starting a family, it's a huge waste stream and it's really important for us to be able to recycle those and get them back, because that's what tips it over the edge in terms of being almost as good.

Robbie Stanniforth: As reusable nappiesl Another benefit that local authorities will find from it is in MRFs, the Smurfs. These nappies

00:20:00

Robbie Stanniforth: end up all over the place. Like they end up in recycling bins, they end up on conveyor belts in the wrong place and often can contaminate other recycling of plastic bottles or metal cans, etc. So there's this double benefit of, increasing the amount of recycling but also improving the quality of the rest of the recycler by not having the odd stray nappy that someone thinks is mostly plastic, so they put it in a plastic bin, erroneously.

James Piper: Trash talk.

Robbie asks if having a child changed your perspective on the environment

So I'm having A baby. How sustainable is it to have a baby? That's what I wanted to find out. Spoiler. Not that sustainable. That's our starting point. But Robbie, I was intrigued because you've got a daughter, and you've gone through this, through this bit of a journey. And I was just wondering if having a child changed your perspective on the environment. So suddenly you have the next generation to think about and your timef frme are extended. So know when you hear about climate change, people say, oh, there's going to be extreme flooding in 2100 or whatever it is. And you think, oh, that's really bad. But it's kind of out of your time frme suddenly you have a kid and it's within your timef frame. Again, want. And I'm just intrigued as to what that felt like for you.

Robbie Stanniforth: No, definitely like of the moment they're born. You have these kind of existential philosophical moments about the future and the future that they're born into. but more so than when, she was a baby, as she got to get older. And now environmental topics in schools and things are quite a big topic. Like she talks about plastic and how to recycle and, water companies dumping sewage. So not just, like climate crisis, very big things, but also quite small local environmental issues that I just don't think I was thinking about when I was 7 years old or whatever. It was not on my radar at all. So it just goes to show, that kids are more aware of it and that doubles down on my already heightened sense of the future. So, yeah, I think you're right to pick up on that. And most parents will go through that, thinking about what they can do to make a difference. And I'm fortunate in my job role. I'm working in environmental issues every day. So it gave me more fuel for the work that I do, I suppose.

Let's just talk about population growth because obviously that's what we're talking about

James Piper: Let's just talk about population growth because obviously that's really what we're talking about when we talk about having kids. the reality is we know that human activities destroy ecosystems and it's about 100 to 1,000 times faster, which is a huge range. I don't know which one to take, but significantly faster than natural selection would. You know, when we talk about deforestation, biodiversity loss, ocean acidification, soil depletion, permafos melting, climate change, all those things which we'll be getting to one day, we'll talk about all those things. We know that human activities speed up, those, those things faster than natural selection would. And in Terms of human population forecast to reached 9.6 billion on the planet in 2050 and 11.1 billion in 2100. it is worth noting we're growing at a much slower rate, like 1% a year. in the 60s that was like 2%, hence the name baby boomers. and we know that we are having fewer children. By 2100, that population annual growth is forecast to drop to, 0.09%. So it's going to drop quite significantly. but it's still a huge number when you multiply it against those 11 billion people. So we know that populations will continue to increase between now and 2100. And there was a study published actually in 2017 that said the most sustainable act you can do in develop countries is deciding to have one less child. That's the biggest thing you can do. and then that is followed by living car free. So not having a car, avoiding long haul flights and eating a plant based diet. So those are the big things that we can do. Packaging normally falls quite low on that list actually in terms of recycling.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, sure. And I think, you can imagine the kind of circles I move in in terms of environmentalists. And I've heard of, plenty of couples that I know who are not having children just on environmental grounds. Know, they say one less child than you might be planning to. And you know, there are some people out there who are so concerned about population growth that their action is to just to go childless.

James Piper: That's too late for me. This is the moment anyway. It's interesting, isn't it? Because then you have an ageing population, you don't have the workforce coming in, so then you have pension crisis. So economically it's all so compl. Complicated. We're not going to talk about all that. But you know, we know this is a really complicated

00:25:00

James Piper: balance. You have to have young people coming through the system to support the older people. And as we're all living longer and medical care is allowing us to live longer, obviously we do need to keep that population growth to keep the economics going. So it's like you just have to solve so many big issues if you're going to start reducing population growth. and really that comes down to a more universal system in terms of income and pensions and all those kind of things. So this is not an economics podcast. Let's not talk about that.

Robbie Stanniforth: So we're not going to talk about that? Ah, phew.

James Piper: No, I think we're good.

The average UK carbon footprint is 4.7 tonnes according to World in Data

really this is about carbon footprints, right? This is about how much impact can one individual have in their lifetime. And so I had a little look. The average UK carbon footprint is. Well, I went on to World in Data to try and find this out, or our World in Data and they were saying 4.7 tonnes and the US is around 15 tonnes per person per year. Now 4.7 is very low whenever I've looked at that in the past. So I dug into that a bit deeper and I think what's happening is for the uk, well for all the numbers they are using local production and they don't include imports. Now the UK is a massive importer of stuff. We't, we are a service based country, not necessarily a manufacturing based country. although that is obviously changing. So from what I could see when you include imports it's more like 10 to 12 tonnes. So it's really complicated. Different websites have different numbers. But just to keep it easy, let's say the average human per year in the UK has a carbon footprint of.

Robbie Stanniforth: Around 10 tonnes as opposed to the US that has 15 tonnes you said.

James Piper: Yeah, but again the 15 tonnes doesn't include imports. the US does do more manufacturing so they're not going to be a massive increase. They might go up to like 16, 17. So we know the US is a significant has significant individual carbon footprints and the UK number has actually been falling as we all make different decisions and it's certainly been falling in the last few years. So we'll keep IT number simple. 10 tonnes per person per year. Robbie, I don't know if you've read the book. Information is beautiful. It's like one of my favourite books. I think we might have a copy in the office actually. I'm sure I bought one for the office.

Robbie Stanniforth: I take look. No, I've not read it. No.

James Piper: Okay. So it's a book basically that visualises data. So it's like infographics and there's a few of them now.

Robbie Stanniforth: Sounds like my kind of book, James.

James Piper: Yeah. So it's written by a guy called David McCandless I think and information is beautiful as the first book and then I think there knowledge is beautiful and news is beautiful. I'm not sure if they're all is beautiful but certainly he's got three books and that first one, Information is Beautiful. I dug my copy out last night and that has a page on carbon footprints and has a page on Your dad's just emailed me. It really threw me.

Robbie Stanniforth: He's absolutely on it this morning.

James Piper: We'll keep that in that'be that's great. Thanks, Dave. so I was looking through the face, this beautiful book, and they have a page on carbon footprints and they visualise all the different things and they estimated to raise a child to five years old could be around 105 tonnes. So the average adult is 10 tonnes a year. The average person in the UK is 10 tonnes a year. But just to raise a child to five years old, we talk about 105 tonnes. Now, if this was done sustainably, that could drop to as low as 27 tonnes. Jez, that's.

Robbie Stanniforth: That's a big difference.

James Piper: Yeah. And then I read another study that said raising a child could be as high as 58 tonnes a year, which is mat. So it's just a huge range. And when you consider your. I think the 58 tonnes, by the way, is all supply chain. So if you were to buy a toy, it's like the whole supply chain of that toy, I think that's how they get to 58 tonnes. So I'm not sure that's particularly fair. But I think what we can remember is we normally, as an average carbon consumer in the UK, will use 10 tonnes a year and raising a child to five could be about 20 tonnes a year, because that's 105, but it could be as low as 27 if dones sustainably.

So let's talk about sustainability, um, and things we could do

So let's talk about sustainability, and things we could do or things I'm m planning on doing, although the first one I'm not sure. As I've said already, I'll report back on what I end up doing. But I guess the first one is reusable nappies. And there have been lots of studies done that compare reusable nappies to disposable nappies. Because actually, from a sustainability perspective, it's not quite as straightforward as you think, because obviously you have to wash the nappies. That requires water and energy, and you don't do that with disposable nappies. And there have been a number of studies over the years that have shown that those things are quite similar. As in the carbon footprint of disposable. And reusables are actually pretty similar.

Robbie Stanniforth: Whoa. Really?

James Piper: yeah, but there was a more recent study that actually showed reusable nappies, if you wash them

00:30:00

James Piper: at a lower temperature, on quick washher and things like that, then reusable nappies could come out. I think it was about a third better than disposable. So, that is something Elie and I are thinking about. Live what we want to do. And I did read a study that said kind of don't switch. You have to decide what you're going.

Robbie Stanniforth: To do and just stick with it.

James Piper: And stick with it. Because the worst thing you can do is buy reusable nappies, use them for a bit and then switch to disposable. Because what you've done then is taken in the material of the reusable nappies, taken all of the carbon cost of making those reusable nappies and then you're not using them.

Robbie Stanniforth: Ah, sure.

James Piper: This is why I haven't made a decision yet. Because you have to make a decision and stick with it.

Robbie Stanniforth: There was a nappy sor. Reusable nappy rental scheme in Bristol, fact when I was looking at it but unfortunately I moved out of the Bristol area so we could never take it up. But it was one of those things where it's like a pool system and they actually pick up the nappies and wash them themselves. So you're like sort of, you're kind of in a way disposing of them like you would a bag of single use disposable nappies. And then they're bringing back perfectly washed and clean nappies with, with the inner as well, you know, because it's sort of two parts isn't it? The outer, protective bit and then the inner lining. But as you mentioned sticking with it, being really important. We stuck with reusable nappies. We probably just bought the wrong ones to be frank because we stuck with it for about a week and then said this is untenable, we can't get them to work. And rather than jumping onto the next style of reusable nappies we basically just gave up and went to the kind of cornst starch based ones for what it's been.

James Piper: Okay, yeah, well I'll keep you posted on what we do and what are other things you could do to be sustainable. so you could ditch the car, Robbie.

I just thought this was a good opportunity to talk about your modes of transport

I just thought this was a good opportunity to talk about your modes of transport.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, no, exactly. I mostly travel around the city of Bristol, live back in Bristol, have done for the last five years or so. And my daughter did have one of those little chairs or whatever on the back of my electric bike. but as she's got older, obviously outgrown those kind of chairs at the back. I've got some handlebars behind my saddle, behind my seat post for and a real heavy rated pannier and she just has a little seat pad and she sits on the back of a normal electric bike. It isn't one of those big cargo bike type things. And we zoom around the city going from here to there. And certainly that compared to driving a car around, it surely must be saving me some carbon.

James Piper: Yes, well done. You've ditched the car. That's great.

James: Making homemade baby food is a massive sustainability choice

Big one for me. Actually. This is obviously a bit more personal, but, homemade baby food and here really I'm thinking about, ultra processed food. So again, a personal reflection. For me, this isn't going to be for everyone, but just sharing something. this year I've actually gone on a massive weight loss thing and I've managed to lose three stone this year. And some of that, or quite a lot of that has been because I read a book called Ultra Processed People, which, if you haven't read it, ah, I would definitely read. It's fascinating. I'm not going to go into all the science and detail behind it, but ultimately it's about trying to get people away from ultra processed food. And it starts in a really scary way. It talks about the fact that the average adult diet, I think in the UK is 60% ultra processed and the average child diet is 80% ultra processed. And, you know, for me, I cut out ultra processed food. I'm walking loads, I do about 20,000 steps a day in order to lose that weight and have had a good year in that regard. But it really has highlighted to me that need to kind of think about what I'm going to be preparing as food for me and for my child. So I know, look, convenience is really important. I'm sure I will also be feeding out of the jar and all sorts of things as they get older. But I'm just reflecting on the fact that, you know, that homemade baby food is a massive sustainability thing because obviously you're not buying packaging and you can just buy up a load of veg and blend it up. But also for me it's a big health thing and so that's something I've been focusing on this year quite a lot.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, no, so the previous iteration of that for the prior generation of parents, so when I was a new father nearly a decade ago now, was just sugar and salt, you know, so that was the thing that we were really hyper conscious of, like not having food that's got too much sugar and salt in. And obviously as the science has been more popularised and socialised, we've realised it's not just purely about sort of Salt and sugar in these foods. It's the fact that they are ultra processed and sort of not natural in and of themselves.

James Piper: And then obviously, secondhan stuff is obviously really important. All our cloves so far that we've got have been donated by my nephew. So big shout out

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James Piper: to Lucas who's donated all his clothes to our little baby. So thank you so much.

Robbie Stanniforth: Is that unknowingly?

James Piper: Yeah, he's very excited. I think he does know. But yes, yeah, it's very kind of my brother and sister in law to provide those clothes to us. So yeah, we've got a bit, we've got drawers full of secondhand clothes.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, I must say that's one of the easiest things to do. I would say. You know, some people will find it hard to ditch a car to go and make homemade baby food to switch to reusables. But it's so easy to get hold of second hand kids clothes through Vinted and these online eBay, etc. That actually it's basically as easy as buying new clothes.

James Piper: The tricky one for us, Robbie, because we're two guys, let's acknowledge that neither of us are going to do this in our lifetime. But breastfeeding is obviously an important thing when you're talking about sustainability because obviously if you choose to go down the formula route, which is, you know, completely everyone's independent decision, but if you choose to go down that route then you've got extra packaging and you've got a product that has a supply chain as opposed to just breastfeeding which doesn't have any of those things. So I know this is a topic we can't really talk about with any significant education, Robbie, but just highlighting that that might be a sustainability choice as well in terms of products that you could buy, toys, all those kind of things, we're going to aim to keep them natural, so largely wood and trying to avoid plastic where possible. So those are basically the six things that we're trying to do. And I think if you do those six things, you start taking the 105 tonnes to rear a child to five years old and hopefully get it closer to about 27 tonnes, which is. Which is the ambition.

Robbie Stanniforth: Ah, very good. So run us through them again, James. What are those six things?

James Piper: Okay, so reusable nappies, question mark as to whether I'm going to do that one. Ditch the car. Definitely doing that one. I walk everywhere. Anyway, homemade baby food, that's really important to me for lots of reasons. Second hand cloths and secondhan items, breastfeeding, not so much me. And, natural products. And when we talk about toys and things that we're buying. So those, for me are the six things that I'm focusing on, in the next few years.

Robbie Stanniforth: Best of luck, James.

James Piper: Thank you.

The big one is to teach children about sustainability

I guess, finally the big one is to teach about sustainability. And there's a really cool book called How Bad Are Bananas? Which, if you haven't read it, I would fully recommend you do. It's like the carbon footprint of everything. It's, by Mike Berners Lee, who's the brother of the inventor of the Internet.

Robbie Stanniforth: Oh, wow.

James Piper: yes. And he's written some really interesting books. He wrote there's no Planet B, I think, as well. And, they're really, they're definitely worth reading. He is my dream podcast guest. I'll know we've made it if I've managed to get Mike Berners Leon, because he is the carbon footprint guy. M. I think he actually does the carbon modelling for, like, Brew Dog. You know when Brew Doog said they were going to plant that forest.

Robbie Stanniforth: Oh, yes, the trees. Yeah.

James Piper: He was on their board. in his book he talks about the, kind of what your baby would use in terms of its carbon over its lifetime. And just to explain how important it is to teach children about sustainability, a baby born in 2020 to a typical family, but who learns and respects climate science, will generate about 210 tonnes over their lifetime. Okay, so that's significantly less than the 10 tonnes per year. So that's a baby that has grown up and decided they're not going to fly very much and they're not going to, you know, they're going to really, reduce their carbon footprint. It could be as low as 210 tonnes over their lifetime if you have the same baby, but with an average UK carbon footprint. And that would go up to 775 tonnes over their lifetime. So up from 210. And if you had a baby that grew up to be wealthy and didn't care about carbon, so they had an SUV and they took lots of flights, that could be up to, or, sorry, higher than 5,000 tonnes. So an individual in their lifetime can range anywhere between 210 and 5,000 tonnes, depending on their knowledge of climate science. So for me, it's not just about what I do as a parent, but it's also about what I teach in order to hopefully create, a family that is very conscious of all these things that could affect their carbon footprint.

11 billion wet wipes are used a year and it costs water companies millions

Rubbish. Or not so the obvious rubbish or not when we talk about babies is wet work wipes.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: Rubbie. Cam wet wipes be recycled?

Robbie Stanniforth: No. Surely this is a rubbish straight off the bat.

James Piper: Just a rubish. It's such a shame. 11 billion wet wipes are used a year and I couldn't believe this, but it costs water companies 100 million to clear blockages. I think that's per year.

Robbie Stanniforth: Whoa. Gosh.

James Piper: Ah. And my newborn might use 900 wipes a month.

Robbie Stanniforth: Jes, that's a lot, isn't it?

James Piper: I'mnna really try not to use them, but I just. Yah, I know. I'm going to.

Robbie Stanniforth: No, don't give in, James. Come on. You can use other materials. Yeah, I mean, so these wipes, they contain plastic fibres, that don't break down.

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Robbie Stanniforth: And most companies have moved away from those plastic, fibres. But they do create these fatbergs, which is bloody horrible imagery, isn't it? Fatberg, of these unflushable wipes which just all congeal in the water system. And, wipes apparently can account for 90% of those fat burgs. So they really do make the problem in the sewage system that much worse.

James Piper: Yeah. And then the water industry really confused us because they created a standard called fine to flush, which you will see on some wipes. So on packets of wipes you might see a little logo that says fine to flush. And this was a standard where wet wipes were tested under lab conditions and. And they said it recreated the real world forces of sewers. So basically they shook and wipes up a know in a bottle and said, look, that's what a sewer does because it mixes all around. And they proved that if a wipe could disintegrate in that and didn't have plastic fibres and would break down like a toilet tissue does, then it would be fine to flush. And so they created this standard to meet that standard. You can't have plastic has to degrade in the Sewa in the same way as toilet paper. so this is what water companies were like pushing for this fin flash. And then in February 2024, so February this year, they dropped the standard. They said, no, nothing's fine to flush, we're getting rid of it. O do not flush wipes.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, that's wise.

James Piper: I think part of the reason of it is people didn't understand what fine flash actually meant. And from what I understand, it literally means one wipe per flush. And so, I mean, I haven't got the carbon footprint of a toilet flush. But that carbon footprint must be pretty significant.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, sure. So yah, if you're flushing and flushing and flushing to get rid of the 10 wet wipes that you'used that cannot be a good thing.

James Piper: That's going to have a lot of issues. So they've just said, look, let's not flush them. So I wasn't sure about this. So I actually text my friend who's in the water industry to say where are we on wipes and our wipees? Flushable. And her response, and I'm going to quote directly, was they are not. Okay.

Robbie Stanniforth: We'Re gonna have to beep that. Have we got the technology to beep it?

James Piper: Rubbish. S question.

Robbie has a question for you from a brand new father called James

So believe it or not, Robbie, no one wrote in with a baby related question because again, like the Halloween episode, no one knew we were doing this episode.

Robbie Stanniforth: Yeah, they had no idea.

James Piper: So I have a question for you from a brand new father called James. Robbie, what advice would you give me as I enter the world of fatherhood?

Robbie Stanniforth: Oh gosh, has this got to be rubbish related or can I be anything you want?

James Piper: I think let's end on a nice, you know, whatever you want.

Robbie Stanniforth: Okay, fine. Well, I think my advice probably would be looking back at my time. It would be time itself, I think, and not just the quantity of time that you managed to spend as a father bonding with your child child, but actually the quality of the time. Because quite often you can, as I found myself, you can be there a lot, but somewhat tearing one's hair out and kind of back to the wall stuff. And there's the phrase that goes around in parenting circles, I'm sure you must have heard it already, that you're sort of in the trenches. And that kind of mentality of being in the trenches for the first few years I think is actually quite unhelpful. That's not how you should be seeing it and by and large that's not how you actually will see it. It's a joyful thing and I think in every difficult moment I would say that you have to take a step back. Easy to say, harder to do. and just realise that these are very, very precious moments. I know it's it's hyperbole and probably a cliche that you've heard from many other people. But looking back on that special time when my daughter was zero to sort of three years old and toddling, it went by in an absolute flash. And I kind of, if looking back, I wish I had a taken a bit more time to Just step back and say, hey, this is absolutely fantastic. You know, it's a great position to be in. Joyous.

James Piper: O thank you so much. That's great advice. I will take time but I'll also be on this podcast next week. That'sound a bit more tired.

Robbie Stanniforth: You get one hour a week for this podcast, James. Otherwise you'll be there with your child.

James Piper: Thank you all for listening to what is a bit more of a personal episode because obviously it's linked to something that's very live in my life. Although not live as I'm recording this. It's a bit weird. So pretend it's happened when it hasn't.

Robbie Stanniforth: Al live in a.

James Piper: Exactly. Not long now. So thank you all so much for joining and bearing with us as we have this chat. Hopefully it was useful. Just

00:45:00

James Piper: going through something a bit more specific. We really, really appreciate the support for listening. We we are just so grateful for what this podcast has become, as we say most weeks. And if you're enjoying it, please make sure you leave us a review. Make sure you write in. So just as I'm talking now, Robbie has written in our OneNote socials and capital letters. So let me do that. We are available on social media robishpr podcast. You can email us talking rubbishpodcastmail.com or you can WhatsApp us using our WhatsApp link which will be in Facebook or Instagram. and ah, our linktree is in our show notes. So as Robbie says, way too many ways to contact us but everyone seems to be using all of them which is great. Get lots of emails, lots of whatsapps and I just love reading everything that we get through. So thank you so much for engaging with us. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast cast. We will see you all next week. Bye.

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