25. Interview - Alice Rackley, Polytag

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Robbie Staniforth: Hello.

James Piper: Welcome to Talking Rubbish, a weekly podcast delving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and one sided stories. I'm James Piper, all for of the Rubbish book. And I'm joined by Robbie Staniforth by far, from Rubbish Friend. And we are joined today by Alice Rackley from Polytag, our far, from Rubbish guest. Hello, Robbie. How are you doing today?

Robbie Staniforth: Hey, good. Very excited to be getting another interview. Really interested to hear what Alice has to say about PolyTag.

James Piper: Yeah, I'm excited too. We built this one up over a couple of weeks because we're super interested in invisible ``ible barcodes, aren't we? I don't. We'll have to ask Alice what she calls them because, say, digital watermarks, Invisible barcod. I don't know, we'll have to find out what they're actually called. But they are just amazing things and hopefully you've had the opportunity to listen to last week's episode.

Rob Robertson caused an online backlash when he said recycling is pointless

So the first thing we're going to say is if you haven't, if you've come here just to listen to Alice, which we would not blame you for, the best thing to do is definitely to just go back and listen to episode 24 first because it's such a good background to this topic, or we think it's a good background to this topic. I mentioned last week we had a few additions and corrections, so it's probably worth just doing a quick intro if that's okay, Robbie, before we get Alice on the call. Is that right?

Robbie Staniforth: Sure thing. Is this pointing, out what Robbie's got wrong again? M. I'm sure it is.

James Piper: Let me just have a little look. I don't. No, I don't think there's anything in here that Robbie's got wrong. That's great.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay, great. I'll make a change.

James Piper: It's actually me, first of all. You know, I managed to cause a bit of an online backlash just before Christmas. I don't know if you saw this, but on X, Elon Musk had put out an X or a tweet, never getting used to it. And what he'd done is shared a video, right? He shared this video of like. I think it was a. I'm not sure it's like a Greenpeace video, like. And it was basically the crux of it was recycling. Pointless with a bit of a skew to plastic. And Elon in his wisdom just decided to X the three words. Recycling is pointless. Now obviously that's Going to get our backs up, right? We do, a recycling podcast. He's basically calling, our podcast pointless. So we. I had to put something on LinkedIn, so I put this up saying, you know, isn't it weird that a man who's, you know, bear in mind, I've had a Tesla since 2017. So I'm like, you know, I'm not a fan of Elon, but I'm a big fan of the companies and SpaceX and all the things that they're doing. So, so, you know, I have to balance the individual from the organisation. But I put up this thing saying, isn't it crazy that someone who basically has created companies that recycle car batteries because they recycle them into storage batteries and, reuses rockets, is out there saying, recycling's pointless. Isn't that weird? Oh, my goodness. The backlash was insane.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, really?

James Piper: It's my best LinkedIn post I've ever done. I got 118,000 views at the time we're recording this, I got 364 reactions and 194 comments. And for the first time in my life, I experienced true trolling.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, and have you trolled through all 194 comments, or have you given up?

James Piper: I think at some point I just had to enjoy Christmas. But it was super fascinating because what was interesting about this post is most people were commenting, we agree. And then some people were coming in and saying, well, we don't agree because what you have to do is take the context of the video and then apply these three words, recycling as pointless over the top. And I was like, I just have to disagree. You know, if someone shares the. I was trying to think of an analogy. If someone shares the Coca Cola Christmas truck ad and says, I hate Christmas, I'm not sat there going, yeah, they hate Christmas, but they sort of like it because they shared the ad. Like, it's really important on social media, right? Particularly if you're someone like Elon Musk. It's really important that you provide the context in your tweet or ex. Because the reality is what I saw, you know, loads of those people, millions of people who saw that won't have watched the video. They saw three words that said recycling is pointless. And if all the people commenting on my post were true and they were saying, well, actually he was talking about plastic, then he should have said, plastic, recycling is pointless, then we could have a debate about that.

Robbie Staniforth: Words are important, Elon.

James Piper: Yeah, and lots of people were commenting saying, o, but what he's actually saying if you watch the video, what he's actually saying is recycling is pointless and m we should be consuming less. It's like, okay, great, so say recycling is pointless and we should be consuming less. Anyway, rant over. I just was fascinated in like how social media works and that experience that I had for the first time in my career where I felt like actually I d put something out there that was getting quite a lot of engagement in a negative way and that was just quite interesting to experience and think about. So I just wanted to share that.

Robbie Staniforth: O very good.

James Piper: And then I've got two editionss and corrections Robie that are going to make us feel like our podcast has grown significantly.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, great. Well up for those.

James Piper: Yeah. Sometimes you have these moments where you're like oh wow, we really have grown. This is amazing.

Cambridge University has introduced resource recovery bins to improve recycling

So the first one is back, episode 21 we had a bin. Do you remember we launched bin spotters and we had Denise at Cambridge University who'd spotted a bin.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh yes.

James Piper: And on the bin it said.

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Robbie Staniforth: That's right, yeah. Poorly labelled bin.

James Piper: Exactly. It said resource recovery and then it had lots of info about what you shouldn't put in there.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. Was it dry mixed recyclables, etc.

James Piper: Well, straight after that episode went out Ben, who's the environment manager at Cambridge University, whats sapp me to say? I can tell you all about this bin.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, really?

James Piper: This is amazing. We have someone who presumedably goes to the university quering the bin and then straight away we had the environment manager come back explaining how the bin works. So I thought I we'd just fill in some of the blanks that we had. So he said they called the bin resource recovery because back when they did the tender they'd had issues with the previous contract and they'd had general waste and DMR bins and we've talked about dmr which is dry mixed recycling, so doesn't mean a lot to people. So they wanted to move away from that. They were finding lots of recycling in the general waste m so what they decided to do was have a three bin system. one for food, one for wet waste from the labs and then one for everything else and everything else would go to a Smurf for class leading segregation. That was what they were aiming for. The main driver, he said, was to ensure the food waste went to ad that was the main thing. They wanted to send the food waste to anaerobic digestion and didn't want to spoil the things that could be sorted. So it's interesting, we do see this a lot where organisation go focus on the food because that's the thing that's going to contaminate your recycling. Then do all your recycling mixed and send it to an amazing mf.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: And they called it. And they wanted a recycling rate of 80%. So this was their aim, in terms of doing these bins. So the term resource recovery was chosen because they actually felt if you called it a recycling bin, that would be disingenuous, it wouldn't be true because they. For lots of stuff. They were asking for everything, basically, and they were saying, we're just going to go and sort this.

Robbie Staniforth: So did he then say where those resource recovery things went?

James Piper: Yeah. So the resource recovery went off to a mrf.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay.

James Piper: And I think they said they were getting about 60% recycling rate from the mirth, which is fairly typical. That kind of percentage is fairly typical when you are, just combining loads of stuff together and you're not being specific about what's put in the bin.

Robbie Staniforth: So not terrible, considering that they're just saying bung everything but food. and scientific waste in this bin.

James Piper: Yes. And I think they found the communication quite hard on this, actually. As we said in our episode, they focused on the messaging being about what shouldn't go in the bin. And even with all this communication campaign, even with all this work, they felt that actually the staff of students were not convinced that the waste would actually be sorted. You know, once you're putting a load of stuff into a bin, you'll say, resource recovery are like, o. I'm not actually sure that's going to happen. We hear that all the time.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: So, Ben's basically looking at this at the moment. He would like to see more segregation. And so we're going to talk about simpler recycling soon. Robbie. Which is how you split waste out and how. And defer are basically advising how companies split waste out and organisations have to do that, I think. Is it from April this year?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's right. That's when it starts.

James Piper: So organisation are going to have to collect segregated waste. We'll talk about that another time. But obviously that's something that Ben's looking at. So they're looking at a new system to segregate more of their waste. It was great to hear from him and great to hear the information and, fill in those gaps.

Robbie Staniforth: Wow. Amazing that we had a listener who knew exactly about the topic we were talking about. That's brilliant.

James Piper: Yeah.

We talked about DRS in episode 23 about collecting bottles in Copenhagen

Do you want to Know our second thing that made me feel like we've grown.

Robbie Staniforth: Go on them.

James Piper: So this was about DRS again. We talked about DRS in episode 23 and I mentioned that I used to live in Copenhagen and that Copenhagen used to be quite. From when I was there, you d buy all your drinks in glass bottles. You'd take it all back, they'd wash it. And I got the impression that DRS wasn't used as much as back then and perhaps there was less glass and more plastic, that was going through that system. And I asked anyone from Copenhagen to reach out to me. I got an amazing text chain from John. So thank you so much, John. Honestly, within minutes of the episode going out, really. And John, actually, his first text was him jumping off the train while listening to our episode to get a photo of a beenably, presumably then to jump back on the train.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, brilliant.

James Piper: So it was true dedication. Anyway, the Drs in, Copenhagen is the pants system. P A N T. Yes.

Robbie Staniforth: I've seen it on the back of bottles. Yeah. P A N T. Even ones that you see in the UK sometimes.

James Piper: Yeah. Things that they sell in multiple countries. You might see that word PA A N T. And, he talks about all these different collection infrastructure. So we talked about the fact that small corner shops might have, something to collect up bottles and they have that in Copenhagen. Then they have retail reverse vending machines. So in a bigger supermarket you'll have a vending machine. they also have dedicated DRS collection centres. and John was very excited and thought and was quite keen to head to a DRS collection centre to send me loads of photos. So that's what he did over the weekend.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, great. O, that's amazing.

James Piper: So I got all these photos of the process working. I guess the thing that's

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James Piper: interesting about Copenhagen is they've got this, different, fee level for different material types. So. So they have one Danish krona, which is called Pant A, which is for glass bottles and aluminium cans that are less than a LRE. They have a 1 1/2 Danish krona for Pamp B, which is plastic bottles, less than a litre and Danish kroa 3. So 3 Danish creaner for Pant C, which is all bottles and cans between 1 and 20 litres. So they have different levels of deposit based on the size of the container and also what it's made of.

Robbie Staniforth: So this is that variable fee we were talking about in the episode based on the container size.

James Piper: Yeah, variable fee. And the bin that John sent me. Interestingly had a little donation, slot and basically you could put your bottle or can on that donation slot and then someone who wanted the money could come and take that bottle and can out of that slot. It stops people going through the bins having these little slots for you to donate your Danish kroa if you don't have time to take it backing. really interesting to get all of John's insight. And I guess the bit that was correct. So the bit that wasn't correct is they're using DRS less. I think everyone still uses it just as much, if not more. Certainly the picture John sent me from the Drs, centre was massive. Long queue of people returning huge quantities of bottles and cans. So I didn't get any impression that it, it wasn't being used. But the bit that definitely was correct and I confirmed that with him was that move away from glass. Now it's more likely to be plastic and cans. This has inspired me. I think we need. I think we need to start doing some M international episodes of things that we've. Really interesting things that people have in their country that we don't have in the UK that we can talk about. If you're sat there in a country that isn't the uk thinking, I've got something to add to this conversation, can you WhatsApp me? Which is available on our Facebook or Instagram M. Contact us on social media, which is RubbishPodcast. You can email us@talkingruubbishpodcastmail.com and we have just launched our Discord. so the link will be in our show notes for our Discord. So there's loads of ways of getting in contact. and we'd love to start collating some international information so that we can start putting together some international episodes.

This is episode 25 of the Poodcast podcast featuring Alice Rackley

Today we're joined by Alice Rackley, who is the CEO of Polytag. Hi, Alice.

Alice Rackley: Hello, James. Hi, Robbie.

Robbie Staniforth: Hey, Alice.

James Piper: Great to have you on the podcast.

Alice Rackley: O, thanks for having me on.

James Piper: Polytag are, an amazing organisation because they do what we talked about last week. These bits of data that are hidden on our packaging that can be read by UVs and then they go to a MRF and the MMRF scans the UV, or uses UV to scan the barcode and decide what type of packaging something is. So as I said earlier, if you haven't listened to episode 24, which is last week, I'd list/en to that first because it's super interesting background and probably necessary for some of the questions we're Going to ask Alice in this episode. And as always with our interviews, we like to do a little giveaway. So Alice has very kindly sent me a UV torch, which is like an industrial UV torch, to be able to scan these things and we'll talk about packaging you can find these QR codes on and then you'll be able to use this UV torch. I've also got some sample labels which I think I'm going to throw in, so I'm planning on posting me out. Alice, did you want, did you want to add anything into the mix?

Alice Rackley: Yes. Yeah. We've got some very cool Polytag sweatshirts printed on, 100% sustainable organic cotton with our logo and they look very cool and we'd love to see people wearing them out about. So happy to give away one of those too.

James Piper: Wow, this is a great prize. We'll put all of those, on our social media. If you want to be in with the chance of winning thoses, you need to follow us on Instagram, Rubbish, Poodcast and just like the post with Alice's face. And then you'll have the opportunity to win that. We as listeners will know. In the last episode, Robbie and I got a little bit too excited about. What are we calling them? Invisible barcodes or digital watermarks or do you call them something? What do you call them?

Alice Rackley: We call them UV watermarks at PolyTag because that's kind of, What kind of what they are. They're printed using UV ink and they're invisible to the human eye. Like a watermark is.

James Piper: Okay. UV watermarks. We didn't say that at all last week.

Robbie Staniforth: Robert wasn'the only thing we didn't say. James.

Alice Rackley: It was a great though. I really enjoyed it and I love listening to all your episodes. Guys, you're doing a brilliant job. It's honour to be on the podcast.

James Piper: O, thank you so much. We're trying to do interviews every five episodes. This is episode 25. We've stuck to that so far. So you're our fifth interview episode and we like to build up our knowledge around them, which is why we did this episode last week on, UV watermarks, as I will call them for this episode. So let's go straight into it. We'll do.

PolyTag helps brands identify whether single use plastic is being recycled

Let's start with a bit of a background to Polytag, but we, we really want to get into the detail quite quickly, I think, on this one because there's so much to discuss. but just give us a bit of a background on the company itself, how you started and what it's aiming to achieve.

Alice Rackley: Well, I've been the CEO of PolyTag for three years now, but prior to that I was developing digital solutions for retail. Actually the retail sector, which went through a digital transformation about 10 years ago.

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Alice Rackley: Everybody remember, like the advent of online shopping and app based experiences, landed, a job at GS1 who had the standards agency behind the barcode. When I left the retail sector and it was when I was at J1, I realised that there was a real opportunity to use 2D codes like QR codes and data matrix to enable secular economies. And, as part of the work I was doing at GS1, I met two gentlemen, Phil Sutton and Brendan O'Neill, who'd got this idea for what Polytag has become. And three of us have worked really well together over the last, three years, and developed the proposition that we have today and that we offered to loads of our clients. And we've got really big plans for the future.

James Piper: Great.

Alice Rackley: Phil and Brendnan's background is in recycling. So between me with the digital side of things and then with their recycling expertise, we've, we've really been a good team.

James Piper: Great. And so we were, I guess last week it felt a bit like our episode was quite hypothetical. It was like, oh, we think this thing's really good and it'll be amazing if it comes in. And then to. Towards the end of the episode I was like, oh, just to let everyone know, this could be on your packaging right now. You just wouldn't know. It's invisible. Right. And you were kind enough to send me this kind of UV torch and some examples and we held them up to the camera last week and that'll be on our social media. So if you haven't had a chance to look at those, you can see this in action. so how would people find it? I know they'd have to have a UV torch, but what kind of products are you guys in at the moment and what range? How far reaching is it? That would be really interesting for people to hear, I think.

Alice Rackley: Sure. Polytag'really very much focused on plastics. the name PolyTag is a nod to poly as in plastic, but also poly as in multiurpose. and we have really worked with our clients to date on tagging their single use plastic that they expect is being recycled. And, we've just focused on detecting data in recycling centres to give our brand clients some information they've never been able to see before about whether that plastic is actually being recycled or not. And we often say that they can finally stop guessing and start knowing because, mean, I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that anybody that puts single use plastic onto the market is just hoping and guessing that it's getting recycled. But if they put these UV watermarks on their plastic, we can detect them in recycling centres now and give them that barcode level data that they need to inform their strategy and to optimise decisions they're making about single use plastic.

Alice: We've started working on milks and waters to begin with

James Piper: So, so in terms of the products then, so you've got Audi milk and Co op water and who else are you working with?

Alice Rackley: Yeah, I, and it's a good question. We've started working on milks and waters to begin with. Milk'actually most interesting because they've got really short shelf life and so when we put tagged product or UV watermart product, that's milk onto the market, we know we should be seeing it in recycling centres, you know, within a week or so. Coming back through the system, we also are going to be targeting fresh juices with a couple of our other clients that are coming online this year. So. Yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: And is that mostly Alice, just because you can see the results quite quickly and you, it's like proof of concept stuff that look, it comes back quite quickly and hey presto, it's down at the recycling centre, within a sort of 20 mile radius of where the store was. Is it as simple as that?

Alice Rackley: Yes, that's one of the main drivers. The other driver is that we've got some really good relationships with the label manufacturers that seem to have a specialism in the milks and water space'a whole new world, this label manufacturing business. But yeah, that's the other reason.

James Piper: Great. So I was trying to find labels. I mean I didn't have this, I had a UV torch I'd bought that was a cheap one and you said it might not work so maybe that was the reason. But I was trying to find some in Bristol. I went into Co op and looked at the two lititer water, water bottle and I went into Auddi and looked at the mill and I couldn't find them. So are they regionalized? Like would I find that in Bristol? Are you in different regions? How many products is this? Is this on?

Alice Rackley: So at the moment we've just done small really le onto the market, in local areas where we know that we've got a detection system in the recycling centre that serves that area.

James Piper: Great.

Alice Rackley: however, very exciting from May this year, 2025, we're going to be rolling out on milk waters and fresh juices with Arado and Marks and Spencers nationwide. so those two brands will be able to see at barcode level how much of their single use plastic is actually getting recycled.

Robbie Staniforth: So, James, that's when we release the hounds with their UV torches to go find out what these labels are all about.

James Piper: I'm ready. Look, I'm, look, I've got my UV torch here. I'm ready. I'm going to be walking through the M and S. That's amazing.

Invisible barcodes could help improve recycling rates for plastic products

And so just in case someone didn't listen to last week's episode, even though we said you should listen to it just in case they didn't, what we're talking about here is invisible barcodes on products that, So there's kind of two sides to this, aren't there? So the first thing is you need to get your invisible barcodes on the product itself. that's

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the first item. That's what you're talking about there, where you're saying you've got a Caro coming up, you've got Audi, you've got Co Op, you've got trials that are being run. And, so that's, that's one side of the coin and then the other side is this detection equipment, you're calling it, which is literally a camera. And it's placed over the conveyor belt at the mf. And what happens is the materials running down the conveyor belt and the camera is looking for those invisible barcodes and if it finds them, you've got a couple of things that can happen. First of all, you're counting it so that people like Co Op and Audi know how much packaging is going through their system. But equally in the future you could say, well, we now know this is food grade, we now know this is, PET versus pp. So you can start building into that data that's on that barcode all the different things that recyclers might need to improve their recycling rates. Is that, is that a fair summary of last week's episode?

Alice Rackley: Yeah, exactly. Right, so it's about first step detection, and as you say, it's a camera system and actually a sort of UV light rig inside this black box. And so all of the plastic on the plastic conveyor line in a recycling centre is fluoresc, if you like, and the codes then become visible for a moment when it's in that darksp space and that's when our camera network can grab the data out of the data matrix and feed that back to the brand account. And so as I said, the brand then sees every moment a barcode is captured they get that data for the first time.

James Piper: And does it affect the MTH at all? Like are they, are they able to run the conveyor belts at the same speed? Does anything change for them?

Alice Rackley: No, nothing changes for the MF and we've been really keen to make sure that the kit can be easily retrofitted. and so it just sits as a little module over the conveyor system and doesn't disrupt their operation whatsoever. They don't have to stray the belt down or anything. But the, the secondary benefit once we've detected the data for the brand will be when the M MRF can use those tags to enhance their sortation of the plastic. And I think you touched on that last week. So yeah, we're looking at capturing more information in the data matrix than just the barcode. So you can encode things like is it a cosmetic grade plastic or is it food or non food based plastic? You can encode in the data matrix what generation of plastic it's being recycled. So is it a second generation plastic or a third generation? And those pieces of information really will make a difference in terms of step changing recycling in the future.

How does UV watermarking work? Is it separate process or combined

Robbie Staniforth: And then when it comes to actually the marking itself, explain a bit how they go on because I mean we sort of broadly understand how you just print a normal label with UV inks. Is it like a separate process or is it all done at the same time? How does the UV watermarking bit work?

Alice Rackley: Well it's a great question and we've applied the same principles as we did with the mrf. We want it to be really low disruption and part of a normal manufacturing process for the label printers. and so for those listeners who are aware of how to print labels now, it's basically like potato stamping. So they just have different stamps for each colour and they roll them on, on these huge machines. So they build up the label artwork with, you know, the red ink, then the blue ink, then the black ink, then the green ink and all we are doing is adding another colour onto that press with another potato stamp design if you like. Except this colour is invisible to the human eye. It's a UV bas in and it rolls on as part of the normal label printing process. So it's really low disruption, super easy for brands to do and introduce to their standard processes.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh amazing.

The ECOT TRCE programme will see brands fund installation of detection systems

So go on then, which bit has been the harder bit? They'getting the inks onto the labels or they're getting the cameras into these recycling facilities?

Alice Rackley: Oh, that's a really good question. I would say they've both been equally challenging but for very different reasons. however, we've had a really good breakthrough. towards the end of 2024, we launched the ECOT TRCE programme, which was by the industry for the industry programme that would see brands funding the installation of these detection systems in MRFs. And I, unfortunately can't tell you who else is joining the programme but as you heard there, we've got some really big brands already behind the scheme. and we're going to be able to complete the installation into the 12 largest recycling centres in the UK by July this year. And those 12 largest recycling centres give us 50, 50% coverage of the UK's plastic, that's being handled and processed. And so that becomes a really interesting, I would say statistically significant number for brands that want to join the programme. they put these UV tags onto their single use plastic and then they can see 50% of the plastic that's domestically recycled in the UK coming through these MRFs that have got these systems enabled in them. So we're really getting traction now. It's been a promising start to the year.

James Piper: I mean that's genuinely fascinating because when we talked last week about Holy Grail and we know that's kind of different to what you guys are doing, it's more of a European and it's more of a, I would say

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James Piper: test at the moment. You know, if I think about what we talked about last week, there were lots of these phases that kind of seem to still be in testing. What you're saying here is in the UK you are in a position where you will have 50% coverage of all plastic that's going through our recycling system.

Alice Rackley: Ye.

James Piper: I mean that, that is a real can do attitude, I would say, like in terms of just getting, getting stuff done. Y. is that fair? Is that, is that where we are, that like lots of people have trialled stuff and you guys are like, no, we're just going to make it work. So we get into all the merfs and make it happen?

Alice Rackley: Yeah, yeah. I mean we have gone through the testing and pilot process and we've actually been partnered with the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre, up here in Chester, which is part of the University of Sheffield and they have worked with us to develop this, a prototype of the detection system. we did a bottle to bottle project that was what it was called back in 2022, which was sponsored by Recoup, and that's how we've gone about developing the prototype and then ruggedizing the system. And it was certified at technology readiness level nine, at the end of 2023, which means it's ready for deployment to, you know, live recycling centres. And, we've been really lucky with support from BIFA in particular, who were prepared to take some of the early units into their recycling centres. and the most recent one we launched was in Regen in Northern Ireland, just at the end of 2024. So, yeah, we're really, we're really pleased with support we've had from the industry, but also from, development partners like the Advanced Manufacturing Research Centre. They really helped us to accelerate and get to market fast.

James Piper: Amazing.

There are councils out there that say, remove labels and put them in bin

I have a question about a potential, floor. So apologies for this, but we've got to get into a detail, you know, and I just, just as you were talking, you were talking about printing onto labels, right? And our advice, obviously, on this podcast is keep your labels on. We've talked about that, but there will be councils out there that say, hey, remove labels and, and, you know, put those in the rubbish bin. And people may believe they have to remove the labels, you know, like the lid. And so obviously what's happened with lids is they've become tethered, you know, so harder to remove and people are still removing them. So I guess there's a slight concern that people may remove the label. And obviously when we talked about this last week, we talked about the fact that you could emboss on the actual plastic itself, on the actual bottle. Do you have a view on this? As in what? Obviously, luckily we've got quite a few listeners and we can say, guys, keep your labels on, it's important and Alice needs you to keep your labels on. But, what do you say to councils who are like, o, just remove all that. We just want the plastic. Like, how does that work within what you're trying to create here?

Alice Rackley: Well, of course, if the label comes off at the moment, the UV watermark is on the label and so we wouldn't be able to detect the data then in instance. And so, yeah, we're with you. We'd love people to keep the labels on. if the labels are on the plastic. The way that the data matrix works is, has a very high error correction rate, which means that up to 30% of one data matrix can be, damaged or obscured. But we could still grab all the data from it. And so we don't even need all the labels still on or we don't need the label to be sort of intact necessarily to get some detection of the data. and then on the point of embossing with the work that the Holy Grail project has done, I just think we need all the help we can get and there will never be a one silver bullet solution for detecting and sorting and recycling centres. and so there may well be other packaging types where brands do need to consider alternative marking solutions in order to get the detection and the sortation capability thereafter. ours works really well if the label is on and we can detect just one of those data matrix and we get really, really high read rates at standard operating speed. So for those brands that that's going to work for Polytag is something to consider. But of course have to say there are other marking solutions out there.

Brands are fascinated by the potential that data has for strategy and planning

James Piper: So you've been running these pilots, you've got, you're in Audi, you're in Co op. What is the early data telling us? What are you, what are you seeing from what's coming back? And are there any insights that you could share with listeners in terms of the recycling and what's happening out there?

Alice Rackley: So the interesting thing from the beginning is that brands have never seen this data before and it is just worth considering for a moment. I mean, as I said, I spent my early career in retail where data is just everywhere is king and it's available for every possible moment in the customer journey and the supply chain. And so I found it really quite surprising when I joined the recyclings base that there was so little data available to brands. So the very fact that we're collecting any barcode level data out of recycling centreers is amazing. And brands are fascinated by it and the potential that it has to shape both their ah, internal strategy and planning. you know, what is our recycling rate targets that we're aiming at, for example, how much of our material do we want to have back and be reusing by

00:30:00

Alice Rackley: 2030 for example. So those internal strategy and benchmarking processes are, are really being fueled by this data that they can now get their hands on. But of course the data also has implications not just for internal processes, but also how businesses will respond to new laws coming in, for example, extended producer responsibility. Because of course if they don't know how much of their plastics is actually being recovered, it's difficult for them to plan and think through, the way that EPR will land and so there's. Yeah, there's some really interesting use cases for this data that we might well see being discussed in more detail in the future.

This will allow brands to make recyclability claims that are actually true

James Piper: Yeah, this was one of my thoughts and we talked about it a bit last week. I'd love to get your insight on it, that this will allow brands to make recyclability claims that are actually true. You know, as in if you. I always use Coke and Pepsi. I feel like I need a different example. Why can I only ever think of Coke and Pepsi? Let's do. Let's say Roses versus, don't pick heroes because that's the same company.

Robbie Staniforth: Ros Street.

James Piper: M. Quality Street. Okay, so you've got two different tubs and for whatever reason, Roses customers are more likely to recycle or roses have put their recycling label in such a strong place on the front of the tub that everyone goes, oh, I know that's recyclable. And Quality street have hidden their recycling label. Let's say these aren't true. Please don't sue me, Nestle. These are not true comments. It's just a hypothesis. So you end up with these kind of situation where, I don't know, roses have an 80% recycling rate and Quality street have a 20% recycling rate. But on average the tub recycling rate is 50%. Right. But actually what's happening is it's a brand SKUs. So there's different brands that are performing in different ways because of the comms campaigns and the way that they've labelled their product. So if that's the case, suddenly you can say, well, actually, you know, roses, you are 80% and Quality street you are 20% and you're in a position where actually you can provide that data to the brands. Now it would be disingenuous them for the brands to say, hey, our tubs are at a 50% recycling rate. They really have to be communicating their true recycling rate, which for, in this fake example, roses would be very exciting. And for, Quality street would not be exciting. So I'm sort of just trying to imagine how that would feel as a brand and whether you're experiencing brands excited by that opportunity to see their data or whether they're like, actually, ignorance is bliss. I'd rather not. I'd rather not know my recycling. What. So what's your feeling in terms of the market?

Alice Rackley: I won't name the brand or the person, but I did have this exact conversation where I said, you know, for the first time ever, you could know what your recycling rate is on this particular Product packaging. And the response I got back was, what if we don't like it?

James Piper: Yeah, yeah. It's massive. Because once you know you've got to do something with that data, you can't pretend you don't know.

Alice Rackley: Yeah. What can you say in response to that, other than get yourself some data, start knowing what's going on and then make some decisions about how you're going to improve it.

James Piper: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. I love that. And these are great conversations I have because then you can, you know, and ultimately, I guess it's going to come down to competition, isn't it? You're going to. If you've got a brand that's getting all this data, publishing it, showing it and their competitor isn't, ultimately consumers might swing towards the person who, or the company who's being transparent, because that's what, that's what our experience is. Certainly having done 25 episodes, that's what constantly comes into the WhatsApps and emails. Why haven't we got transparency? I've got this piece of plastic. How do I know it's going to be recycled? I literally had someone yesterday sending a, Ferrero Roche tray saying, you know how it says recyclable, but how will I know that it's going to be recycled? It's like, great. What a good question. This is where you would come into play and say, well, actually we can prove for this brand that this much has been recycled. And I think brand shouldn't be afraid of transparency. We should be pushing forward. Not all is goingna come.

Alice Rackley: I mean, you touched on it a minute ago. Anti greenwashing claims, you know, they won't be allowed anymore.

Robbie Staniforth: And so it sounds like you're having more success at the moment with the retailers. Would that be fair to say, Alice, like, who are the people who are taking this up, you know, most quickly?

Alice Rackley: Well, yeah, we've been really, really fortunate with support from large retail brands. But that's actually a bit of a weird legacy of where Polytag started. we started out actually, offering a solution for digital deposit return schemes, which of course are very appealing if you're a retailer, and you don't want to put reverse vending machines, outside your shop, etc. And so that's where the relationships were.

PolyTag allows brands to put serialised QR codes onto their packaging

Robbie Staniforth: So explain a little bit about how the digital Drs works then. How does that differ from a normal Drs?

Alice Rackley: So Digital Drs is actually something that we can enable with our

00:35:00

Alice Rackley: second tag format. So we've just spent the first half of this episode talking about UV watermarks. But PolyTag also offers brands the opportunity to put a serialised QR code onto their packaging. And that serialised QR code can be a trigger for any app to manage and help consumers claim their deposits back.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh wow. So that's just like a traditional QR code that we would recognise on a piece of packaging.

Alice Rackley: Yeah, excep, it's a little bit smarter than, than sort of standard QR code if you like. Do you know what QR CO stands for?

Robbie Staniforth: No. You tell me.

Alice Rackley: It's a fun fact for the listeners. QR stands for a quick response.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

Alice Rackley: And basically all it does is it allows a machine to read the web address that's captured in the QR code. And so most QR codes that we're familiar with just contain a standard web address. Except the QR codes that we generate and manage for our clients, they will always contain the barcode number of the product. And then if the brand wants, they will also contain a unique serial number. And it's that unique serial number which an app can use to manage with confidence the fact that this is a one time claim and to pay out the 20 pence deposit in the comfort of your own home.

Robbie Staniforth: Sure. And so just give us a bit of a flavour of how that means that you don't need to have all of these reverse vending machines for deposits then using those codes.

Alice Rackley: So yeah, the idea for a digital deposit return scheme is that your standard home recycling bin, which we all use today to put our recycling outside our homes and get collected by the council, that becomes the location for you to actually dispose of your in scope containers with the deposit on them and then to claim the deposit within the vicinity of that bin. So I'm trying not to get too technical but what you can do with app based technology is you can lock the GPS location of a registered bin. So if you robbie wanted to use an app that allowed you to lock the GPS location of your recycling bin to the app, then the app would only operate if you were within a 5 or 10 metre radius of that registered home recycling bin.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

Alice Rackley: And you would then need to scan a serialised QR code on pac had not been claimed.

Alice Rackley: and those things been true. So you're within you know, five met radius of your home recycling bin. You're scanning a serialised one time use code with a deposit return scheme ah, app you can then get your deposit back.

Robbie Staniforth: So doing your bit to redeem your deposit is just scanning it and putting it in your bin at home, rather than handing it over to someone in a corner shop or in a reverse vending machine in the Super. Correct. And so presumably that gps, locking thing of five metres means if you choose not to put it in your recycling bin, you're probably littering your own verge at home. Becauseeah you can't be throwing it, walking down the road and just tossing it in a river or whatever. Does that get over the littering?

Alice Rackley: Yes. I mean, if you're scanning within five metres of your registered bin and you're scanning a serialised code and you're using a deposit return scheme app to do it, you'd have to be, you know, a little bit of a frustrating character to then not put it in the recycling.

Robbie Staniforth: I'mn to use the word psychopathuff.

James Piper: I just have a question about that, then. So if you were. So presumably that could operate with a drs, a normal drs, because, yes, if someone chose not to do the digital, they could take it back to the store and use it. Use the normal drs, Absolutely. I guess what happens, because one of the arguments for DRS is that it, encourages what will end up happening is there will be people who don't claim their deposits and there will be people who then go and fish through bins to get the deposits. And that happens. I mean, that's literally the conversation we've had about Copenhagen know. John was letting us know that people do go through bins getting out the cans of bottles. So what happens if I scan the digital DRS at home? Right, this is. We're going have to go through some stages here. I claim back the deposit, I put it out in my recycling and someone decides, oh, this person's put a bottle out in their recycling, that's worth 20p. I'll take that and I'll take it back to store. So it's come out of my home bin, gone back to store. Would the QR code be the same for both types so it couldn't be claimed again, or how would that work?

Alice Rackley: Yeah, absolutely. So what you'd need in that instance is for the reverse vending machines to be using the QR code as the trigger to payout deposit co. and actually, when Scotland were about to go live with drs, one of the requirements for the reverse vending machine manufacturers were that they needed to be able to retrofit 2D scanners into the machine. So they were already thinking ahead to this future scenario where QR codes would be unpack and would be the trigger for paying out a deposit.

James Piper: Yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: And it wouldn't just be

00:40:00

Robbie Staniforth: based on size and shape, which is what kind of most old school reverse vending machines use, is it?

Alice Rackley: Yeah, you could just use the or you could use a combination of all three, say size shape, plus the serialised QR cod to give real assurance as to who's claiming the deposit.

James Piper: That's very interesting. And so just to summarise because've got down a QR rabbit hole, which is great because I love rabbit holes, but I just want to make sure we're clear for the listeners exactly what we're talking about here. So we've started off talking about UV watermarks, which are the invisible watermarks on a label. We don't see those as consumers and they are specifically for MRFs to sort and recycle. And we've moved into QR codes which are visible. So you would have a QR code on the label that a customer could scan and that would allow digital DRs. It would also allow just, I know you use them for communications around recycling to say put this in this bin, keep the label on all those kind of things. So there's two, two things that you're focused on here, the invisible and the visible.

Alice Rackley: Yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah.

James Piper: And I just wanted to make that distinction very clear because you know, I don't want people to think they have to scan the invisible one somehow and everyone'sn to have a UV torch at home.

Alice Rackley: I yeah, we are distinctly offering two different solutions. You'right to summarise that, James, but the thing about QR codes, I mean I'm going to sound like a QR code geek for a moment, but they are absolutely fantastic tools because not only as you just will they be scannable to take you to a landing page for that product barcode number so you can talk about the recycling processes that consumers need to follow in order to get that packaging recycled correctly. But they can also be scanned by any app. And in the case of Digital Deposit Return Scheme, it would be a Digital Deposit Return Scheme app that would scan that same QR code in order to go through that process. We've talked about paying that 20 pen or it is back to the consumer. The QR codes will also be scanned at checkout from 2027. and so if you follow G's one, and any of the other PO providers, they're all gearing up to retire the stripy barcode that we know and love and replace it with a QR code and then that same QR code can also be scanned throughout the supply chain as well. So it's really, really multifunctional. Ah, single feature on a label that has got the power to unlock all sorts of very, very cool direct consumer comms, app based, processes and supply chain benefits.

Robbie Staniforth: And so, so those are two absolutely fantastic technologies.

Third solution would be AI optical reading of packaging that doesn't have labelling

The third one would be some sort of AI optical reading of packaging that doesn't have any labelling on it. It's just reading easy to find the plastic Coca Cola bottle, probably not so easy to find other niche packaging formats unless you've got multiple pictures of it in a database or whatever. So why is digital watermarking or QR codes better? What, what are the limitations between those? Why didn't you just go down the uber camera route? u. Why do you think marking is so important? I suppose there's a question.

Alice Rackley: First thing to say is, as I mentioned earlier, I think we need loads of solutions. So there's no one single bullet and there are really good examples of where AI, which is where you've got an image file, of a particular piece of packaging that you can use to identify and detect packaging in a recycling centre. I think, you know there is really good use cases for that in certain circumstances but as you mentioned it's actually quite a time consuming process to put all of these photographs of each piece of packaging together and use them to sort of recall when you're detecting and mfs. and so that's the beauty of a code, it's machine readable very, very quickly. and because the codes that we use are a global standard, you can plug our machine into China and it would start detecting Chinese packaging without needing to know what the packaging looked like, without needing an image file library. So it's very, very scalable technology. And when you're using global standards, I think, you know, there's a sidebar here, isn't there, about global standards being absolutely essential to enable these circular economies. Circular economies depend on many different stakeholders exchanging data seamlessly, speaking the same language if you like. and that's why if you've got a standard that is common through that circular supply chain, you've got a much, much better chance of it working. and so we're a massive believer in GS1 standards here at Polytag. It's a critical foundation point to the solution that we've developed.

James Piper: That's amazing.

Alice, thank you for taking time to talk to us today

Thank you Alice and thank you for your time. Time has Flown today. Don't, ah, know about you, but I'm like, I feel like I've been here for like five minutes but I've just been so wrapped up in the conversation, it's

00:45:00

gone so fast. So thank you for giving us your time. We always end with the same question. So, I love this question. Great. So that means you've thought about it. That's brilliant.

Alice asks if you had an environmental superpower what would it be

So we always have the same question, which is if you had an environmental superpower, what would it be and how would you use it?

Alice Rackley: I've talked about this in my kids quite a lot actually. Do you ever watch Inspector Gadget?

James Piper: Oh, yes.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh yeah.

Alice Rackley: So I wish I had Inspector Gadget capabilities with a litter picking arm and a washable bag that I had on me at all times because I'm often out with the kids on the beach or walking in the mountains and I, really want to pick stuff up and take it away and put it in the right been. But I don't have the correct equipment and it just annoys me beyond belief. I often think about, you know, Gareth Morton ek Surety.

James Piper: Yes.

Alice Rackley: What a legend. And in terms of like individual impact, the amount of bags of rubbish that guy has picked up over the years does a great job of putting on LinkedIn. Yes. I think my superpower would be be more Gareth Morton with Inspector Gad Budget Litt picking.

James Piper: And Gareth's going to love that call out. Gareth is a colleague of ours who loves litter picking. He loves walk. He does an amazing job and I happen to know he inspires lots of people because loads of people have said to me, oh, I saw Gare and it inspired me to go littlepy.

Robbie Staniforth: That's great.

James Piper: So I love, I love the Inspector Gadget. So this would, I could imagine it. I've sort of imagined you with a hat on, with an umbrella and not great. I'imagined you with a hat on with propellers coming out so you can fly. And then you're kind of flying down to the rubbish. Is this the vibe? Yeah.

Alice Rackley: And then the litter picker would shoot out for my jacket sleeve.

James Piper: Nice.

Alice Rackley: Just there when you need it. And then there'd also be this huge washable bag that I could fill with litter.

James Piper: Yes. And then you'd be sort of flying over the mountain, but like with a bag that's huge just trailing behind you full of, amazing.

Alice Rackley: And then obviously I'd sort it into the correct recycling bin because I live in Wales and we've got seven. You known, wouldn't you just tip it.

Robbie Staniforth: All onto the belt at the mirf and then the digital watermarks could all be read automatically and it would all go into the right container and get recycled.

Alice Rackley: Nailed it.

James Piper: Right? We're thinking as it goes in the bag, it prints the watermark on. It's like, oh, I know. It's like, stop it. That's cor. We like toolve these better.

Alice Rackley: Better.

James Piper: This is good. Okay, Amazing. Thank you so much for that, Alice. I'm sure everyone listening is because it's such a good build on last week's episode. And Hon_ly this is. I love this topic because I think it's something that we as consumers don't necessarily experience. We don't know it exists, and yet the recycling industry talks about it all the time. And so it's great for this podcast to be able to tell people about it and explain how it works and that they may be pak buying packaging today that has this. And certainly in a few months they'll be buying packaging from Mic Caro, but definitely has this. And you know, I'll be looking out for that with my UV torch. so I really, really appreciate you coming on and explaining it in more detail and what Polytag do. So thank you. Thank you so much for joining us today.

Alice Rackley: Thanks for having me.

James Piper: As always, if you want to be part of the conversation, make sure you're following us. RubbishPodcast. You can email talkingruubbishpodcastmail.com or join our discord and the link for that will be in our show notes and we can all be part of the discussion. Alice, if you're kind enough to join our discord, that would be great. I think I'm going to. Should we create a little interview section so that if people have thoughts, you are there directly so you can respond to them if.

Alice Rackley: Very cool.

James Piper: That'd be amazing.

Alice Rackley: Yah, of course.

James Piper: Cool. Okay. That's going to encourage people to join that. So in our show notes you'll find the link for that and Alice will be in our interview section ready to answer questions. so thank you for that. Amazing. All right, see you all next week. Goodbye.

Robbie Staniforth: Bye.

00:48:51