28. Disappearing plastic? The controversy of oxo-degradable

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James Piper: Hello. Welcome to Talking Rubbish, a weekly podcast delving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and one sided stories. In this episode we will explore how garden waste is collected. Deep dive into OXO biodegradable plastics. Is the netting around oranges rubbish or not? And can you recycle electricals with a built in battery? I'm Jays Piper, author of the Rubbish Book and I'm joined by Roll Beast Annenfor my far from rubbish friend. Hi Robbie.

Robbie Staniforth: Hi James.

James Piper: Hello. Are you okay today?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, feeling good. Really interested about this oxyegradables. Can't wait to get to it.

James Piper: Oh well, interesting you say that. We actually haven't prepped that interesting oxo. What we're going to learn is the naming is really important. So you've just said oxodegradable plastic.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: And the industry that says it's okay would say you have to use the term OXO biodegradable plastic. so we're going to come into that. But the naming is super important. So get ready.

Robbie Staniforth: Learned something already.

We've been getting amazing reviews on our podcast

James Piper: There you go. We've only 1m minute in one minute in the amount of info we're giving on this podcast. It's great. And link to that. We've been getting amazing reviews. I know we ve we did a bit of a contest to get to 100 reviews. I mean it's skyrocketed. I'm up to like 120 something. I don't know what it'be when this episode goes live. so thank you so much to everyone who's been reviewing us.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, I've lost track but I'm sure I'll be checking back in when I get up to the heading 200 number on Spotify.

James Piper: And I thought I'd call out some of my favourites because like some people have written some amazing stuff on Apple. Really, really nice feedback. Of course I'm interested in the ones that are quite funny.

Robbie calls out some of his favourite written feedback on the podcast

So so I just wanted to call out my favourite written bits of feedback because people have left us such lovely words and I just thought let, let's talk about some of them because they're great. So someone wrote in a review, best thing since sliced bread. Now I don't know if they're referring to like Hovis sliced bread or the Sliced bread podcast, the BBC podcast, which actually has also done an episode about coffee pods. O which is definitely worth listening to because it's quite funny. We spend the whole episode pretty much same. The same thing as us. You know, you use less coffee and Coffee pods. From a sustainability perspective, maybe they're not that bad. And then at the end they say, is it like. I can't rem.

Robbie Staniforth: What?

James Piper: They say, is it an amazing invention? Oh, no. What do you mean? They must say best things since slice bread. That would.

Robbie Staniforth: That's probably how they end the episode.

James Piper: Think they say, is it best thing since lastice be or doesn't go to, environmental hell or something. And having spent the whole episode saying coffee pods were okay, they then ended it with send them to environmental hell. And I was like, they literally can't bring themselves to say they're okay. So, episode two, guys, if you need to hear about coffee pods. But, yeah, best thing since slice bread. I assume it's the Hovis Variety, not the other BBC podcast. someone ended their review the other day with'bin Dive. Right in. Which I thought, I think they're going with the whole, like, dumpster dive, you know? Yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: Reclaimed food that's in the dumpster, aren't they?

James Piper: Bin Dive right in. But I've got to be honest, I would have gone with dive. Right. Bin O.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: I feel the pun was there. Yeah. And, my personal favourite, which rivals making the boring less boring is the one who's chosen the headline, call yourself a sustainability expert. And I thought, oh, my God, this is a personal attack.

Robbie Staniforth: Probably they're questioning. we do.

James Piper: It goes on to say, if you are, then you probably need to listen to this to understand the. Of facts behind packaging at Rubbish. So, you know, love the review. If you just read the headline, it felt like a personal attack. And we've had a lot of news this week. This is making me feel increasingly like we're heading in the right direction because we're on our way to rubbish news, to recording a week in advance rather than a fortnight in advance and giving you guys our views on all the news that's happened in the week. But we're not quite there yet. And there's been so much big news this week that we've just got to do a quick summary, haven't we, Robbie?

Deposit Return Scheme legislation passed in the House of Commons this week

So do you want to. I mean, a lot of it's legislative, so, yeah. What's happened this week?

Robbie Staniforth: So this week, the organisation that's going to run extended producer responsibility, take money from the producers, pass it through to the local authorities to run the collections of packagings from our home has been constituted, if you like. So it's called PAC uk. Whole new organisation that I've been helping in the background to set up. So that was Launched this week, Deposit Return Scheme legislation was passed in the House of Commons, this week. So there was a kind of debate and it went through. So that legislation that we talk about in one of the previous episodes that comes in in 2027 has now passed and is looking like an absolute reality. So those were the two really big things that happened this week.

James Piper: And this legislation makes it extremely likely that the UK will now get a drs. Obviously, there's still questions about Wales and what they're going to do, but this is like almost a sure fire thing now. Is that right?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's exactly it. Yeah. At the moment it's still a question mark

00:05:00

Robbie Staniforth: over, how it will work in Wales and when they will bring their legislation forth and what the system will be. But for the rest of the uk, England, Scotland, Northern Ireland, it's time to work out, who's going to be the organisation who actually puts all the reverse vending machines in all of the locations. That will start to happen in the first few months of this year. They'll get appointed. So it's becoming a reality.

James Piper: Great. And I can tell you now, our email inbox has been full of people asking me why I'm against Drs. Just to be clear. I'm not. I love drs. I'm interested in it. I just think there were, you know, let's not re. This is like the third week where I'm defending myself on drs. I don't need to do that. You know, I think there's really good opportunities with drs. I think there were potentially better opportunities to target materials that don't have high recycling rates. I had a quick look at Ireland's numbers last night, actually, because I was emailing someone and, you know, in a year they've collected up 50% of their bottles and cans now. So 50% of what was placed on market has come back in a year. And obviously when we talk about our collection, we're at about 75%. So my concern is mainly that when you introduce a DRS into curbside, you might not get above the existing collection rate because actually, people are already used to putting out on curbside anyway. Let's not open that kind of. I've had loads of emails. I think we should do more on ds. I've actually been in conversation with quite a few of the drinks manufacturers who would like to come on the podcast, hoping that we'll get, you know, we can have a bit of a discussion about it with some of the drinks guys. I think that'd be really good. So it's on the list for some point this year and, maybe we need to do like a bit of a legislative update. Maybe we should do an episode soon'bie of like just where we are with all the different bits of legislation. I think it'd be worth going into a bit more detail on that.

Robbie Staniforth: So you're saying you want me to research an epis?

James Piper: Yeah. You up for steering it?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, why not? I'll give big go.

James Piper: Cool. Okay, we'll look out for that. Maybe next week if we get a chance to do that.

North Lincolnshire Council giving out air fryers to pensioners to save electricity

I also have a news article that I spotted that just I thought was quite interesting where North Lincolnshire Council were giving out 6,000 air fryers to pensioners. Did you see this new story?

Robbie Staniforth: I didn't see that one.

James Piper: Yeah, I think, obviously we've got loads of issues around in the UK around the winter fuel allowance and all these things that have happened. Let's not get into the politics, but North Lincolnshire Council decided that they would give out 6,000 air fryers to pensioners. And it just, you know, as always gets me thinking, oh, I wonder how efficient an air fryer is to an oven. That'something I've looked at many times in the past. So, just as a summary point, ovens use nearly twice the amount of power to an air fryer, so cost nearly twice as m much. So this seems like a great initiative. Give that air fryers to people who typically will live in, you know, smaller, households that maybe two people, maybe one person, feels like a really good way of saving some electricity. Yeah. They also gave out 401 cup kettles, which I love. And we talked in episode two, in the coffee po episode about the fact that instant would be the best way of delivering coffee. As long as you boil the right amount of water and you don't increase the amount of coffee grounds. And if you boil twice the amount of water to what you needed, then coffee pods would be better, an instant. So again, giving out one cup kettles, really good idea. So well done.

Ian wanted to point out the power consumption between AI and QR codes

North Lincnshire Councilitionss and corrections. We had an email in from Ian. Thank you, Ian. He. He addressed the email. Dear Wallace and Gromit, I did. I'm assuming because we're Bristol based. I did go back to him and said, I fear to ask which of us is Wallace and which of us is gr it. I don't know. I don't want to know.

Robbie Staniforth: I think I'm the sidekick. But then I'm also bald as well.

James Piper: So M. I like a Wenley Dale. I don't know, maybe I'm Feathers McGraw. Anyway, Ian wrote in, said, dear Wallace and Gromit, thank you very much, Ian. He said, during our interview with Alice, we talked about the difference between QR codes and AI. And we talked about the fact that we could scan these codes on the label versus using AI, where you're basically, detecting what the product is, using a camera. And Ian wanted to point out the power consumption between those two different things. He didn't have the numbers, so I had to go and do a bit of research. But, he felt that the power usage of like AI and image detection would be way more than just a camera that was scanning QR codes. Really nice call out. Didn't. We didn't ask Alice about it, we didn't think about it. But, I did find some data from Edie, which is like an environmental news media company and they were saying that generative AI is a particular challenge for, carbon emissions and it can require up to 33 times as much energy as task specific software such as just running a camera that's already looking for that already has the data built into that QR code. and the International Energy Agency projected that data centres will account for 6% of the global carbon footprint by 2030.

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James Piper: So, yeah, really interesting just to find some of those stats. Compare AI to QR COD is not something I've particularly thought about. and, there was a survey from Salesforce actually, that said, with the rapid growth of the AI sector, more than 60% of sustainability professionals believe their companies must carefully balance the benefits of AI with its environmental impact. So again, Grey Parrot was the company we know that does AI. We've done stuff with them in the past and I find them a really interesting company. I think we should get them on to discuss this and see what they think. So I will reach out to them to see if they want to come onto the podcast and a bit of exciting news.

Robbie: Eco Surety has offered to sponsor our rubbish podcast

So we, when we set up this podcast, really did not want to do ad as. Did we, Robbie?

Robbie Staniforth: No, yeah, it was one of those things that can be. Yeah. I think they're a necessity, aren't they? at certain points. But it does disrupt.

James Piper: Yes. So we said let's try and not do that. But we also can't afford to keep paying to have it edited. So we got, we got an issue. Right. We've got to get some money in. and we have been very fortunate that while I was thinking about Getting a sponsor. Eco Surety, the company that we both work for, was also looking to sponsor our podcast. I mean, I'm not just saying this because they're our sponsor. We believe Eco sure. It is an amazing company. They're a packaging compliance scheme, so they help all sorts of brands with their packaging compliance. And they've kindly offered to sponsor the podcast, which is just incredible. So that keeps us going. You know, they've agreed to at least a year, where they will help fund our episodes and we will just mention them weekly as part of that and thank them each week. But hopefully you guys don't mind that. I mean, I think it's better than five minutes of ads in the middle, which is what we're really trying to avoid. And we're so grateful to the company that we work for for believing in the podcast and wanting to share this with, you know, more and more people, because part of their sponsorship will allow us to get a bit further and talk to more people. So thank you to those guys. Next week we'll have something a bit more scripted. We haven't scripted anything. Next week we have something where we do a proper thank you and they've approved the words as opposed to this, which is just me rambling.

Robbie Staniforth: You did a good job. Yeah, there's some synergies there. it's great.

James Piper: Tell you so much. We will, it's just worth calling out there, Robbie. We will maintain creative control. They're not getting involved at all in our episodes, in what we write, what we say. We've always said we need to be completely independent. They are purely helping us fund the production and promotion of the podcast, which is really where bank balancess need help most. So thank you to them for helping. And, the podcast will still feel look exactly the same. Just means we can go another year without any long ads in the middle of our episodes. So if you want to get hold of us, you can find our social media rubbishpodcast. You can email us talkingruubbishpodcastmail.com we now have discord, which is where our environmental community is gathering. And the link for that will be in our show notes and everything to do with this episode, our linktreee. Anything we've talked about will also be in the show notes. So just have a look there if you want to find out more. Rubbish process. We're starting to get to the end of our rubbish process. We're scraping the metaphorical barrel. We are. We're into garden was. So we're going to talk About. I mean, it's still important. It's not really the bottom of the bar. It's just not packaging, is it?

Robbie says there are three main ways to dispose of garden waste

so we're into garden waste. We've got a few more of these that we want to cover before we move into rubbish news. And we wanted to talk about how garden waste is collected. And this is a surprisingly interesting topic because there's loads of legislative pieces around garden was. So, Robbie, I'm going to rely on you. Tell us all about garden waste.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. So there's basically three main routes to what you can do with garden waste when you're generating at home. The first is to compost it at home. So lots of people with space with. I think, it doesn't have to be a large garden, but big enough that you're generating volumes of waste and got a space to compost things. You can do it in your own yard if you like. There's also collection from home and we'll talk a little bit about that. And then finally, the option which I use because I don't have that much garden waste, but occasionally I do need to, dispose of leaves I've raked up, etc. You can take it to your local recycling site. So the first one, in terms of the compost bin, that's something that is sometimes it's partially subsidised by councils. And I did a little bit of research and looked at Bristol City Council. Shout out, as always, to Bristol and you can get a compost bin from their website for 20 or so pounds. And that's a like 220 lre, compost bin. And the reason to use a compost bin is that it speeds up the process of turning effectively the material, from your garden, the leaves, the branches, etcetera, into compost itself back to soil.

James Piper: And I need a new compost bin. So 20 pounds from the. Okay, I'm going to order one. Yeah. When we bought our house, the compost bin was broken and I've attempted to fix it and it's just not going to. It's not going to create compost. So. So

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James Piper: I can get one direct from the council. That's great. I mean, what I've been doing with mine is, like when I. And I'm lucky, we have a garden. Okay. So not every house in Bristol has a garden, so we recognise that we're quite lucky here. But I do have a garden and we, when we mow a lawn, I literally just like tip the grass cuttings into a corner that I've created. So Is that okay? Am I better off just getting a compost and making it faster?

Robbie Staniforth: No. Well that's exactly the difference if you've got space. You know, people create bunkers, you know, wooden sort of areas in corner of their garden where they just turn it regularly and that will still make compost. You know, this is all natural stuff that will eventually biodegrade, if left to its own devices. You know, it's part of nature. But the compost bin is, speeds it up basically and means that in a smaller volume, a smaller space in your garden, if you like, you can put more material because it's constantly breaking down much more quickly. It just speeds up the process. And I had a quick check, just a quick Google search online and the council one, I don't know about the quality of the two, but it's definitely 10 or 15 pounds cheaper than just buying it from, you know, a standard kind of garden, retailer or.

James Piper: Okay, great, I'll get on that.

Robbie Staniforth: So, yeah, thank you for that. Yeah. So if like me, you probably don't generate enough waste for a compost bin in your, in your garden, you don't have somewhere to spread the compost for example, or to use it on. Another option is that you can get it collected from your council and often this, this is either a wheelie bin that you get and it gets collected once a week or once every two weeks. Sometimes those collections can be seasonal and only operate through the summer months and not through the winter where there's less organic matter for them to collect. But if you've got space, obviously the wheelie bin is a bet option. It's a reusable vessel that can get emptied every week. The bags, albeit they quite often paper bags that will eventually compost, they are a single use item. So I would advocate going for the wheelie bin if you've got a place to put it over the bags. And generally these are chargeable services so you will pay an annual subscription amount to your local authority and they will come and collect on a weekly basis and there'll be on top of that annual subscription. There's usually a fee per bag if you go down the bag or sack route, the single, single use one or there is a cost to deliver the wheelie bin the very first time, but then you just pay the annual subscription amount thereafter. So it's really important to say that this is a directly chargeable service that you don't get with the rest of the collections. People in the UK can, yeah, And.

James Piper: I also do this because we, when we moved in we had to clear a little garden. So I just subscribed and got the bin. And they collect fortnightly in Bristol, so what they do is they collect your recycling weekly and then they'll do your general waste one week, your garden waste the other week. So it's normally quite easy to remember, but yeah, and I know, I don't know how much to counsel like this, but I do know obviously that people do poull their garden waste bin. You know, someone on the street might have one and then everyone's like, oh, can I put a little bit in yours? And you know, rather than everyone paying a subscription fee kind of, people do do that. I'm sure the council aren't happy about that, but obviously it does happen. People knocking on your door again, I've just got a few leaves. Can I chuck them in your garden bin?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, oh, very good. That's very community minded of you. And so just finally, before we move off the collections and this paid for, service where the council will come pick it up from your house, it's important to say that local authorities, so this won't happen in Bristol and hasn't happened in Bristol, can mix that with food waste because it makes it easier for some people to just dispose of it. Alogether and the government in their simpler recycling consultation said that they will allow exemptions for this to continue in future. However, there's concerns about that. Yes, it does make it a bit easier, food and garden stuff together, but actually it's generally a higher cost to collect it. Allogether because you need more regular food waste collections. You know, it smells more than garden waste. So you have a regular collection that leads to higher costs and there's a belief that you can get a lower yield in terms of the quality of the food waste if it's mixed in with garden waste versus, just food waste on its own. And finally something we'll talk about next week. It has worse environmental outcomes in the process, if you like, because the way that you will manage garden waste is very different to how you would manage food waste. So when you mix it together it goes to the lowest common denominator. But we'll talk more about that next week. And then finally the final option, which is the one that I use because I'm very ad hoc in terms of things that I need to dispose of, is that I literally put a towel down in the back of my car to protect the boot and I shovel the Leaves either directly into the back. Oh,

00:20:00

Robbie Staniforth: branches, I should say, probably not leaves. They get everywhere but, loose branches of garden waste. And then I bag up the leaves and take it to my local authority site. And they generally have an open bunker rather than a skip, to put it in. And you can, deposit the garden waste there and they will send it on for further treatment.

James Piper: Trash talk.

Today we're talking about OXO biodegradable plastics

So, as we alluded to the start, today, we're talking about OXO biodegradable plastics, not oxoegradable plastics, although we will obviously talk about both and talk about the differences. So we talked about compostable plastic in episode 19 and I mentioned that this is my least favourite product that's ever entered the market, OXO Biodegradable. We promised it would get its own episode. There will be a few listeners who have never heard of this material. There will be a few listeners who think this is the best material. I'll give you a little example. I think I said on a previous episode, I did a little holiday to Cornwall, like little weekend away.

Robbie Staniforth: Yes.

James Piper: And, yeah, we talked about me going to that restaurant that serves food waste. And when I got there, I actually know the owners of the house that I was staying in. And they said, oh, we, we've, we're using this really environmentally friendly supplier. You'll be, you'll be really pleased that we're doing this. And I said, oh, that's great. And I opened up the, you know, bin to throw away some stuff and I noticed it was lined with an OXO biodegradable caddyiner. And I said, you know, actually, where's this come from? And they were like, oh, it's from this really environmental supplier. And I was like, wow, there was a real miscommunication here. This is a product that has been banned in the EU and is. If you were in the eu, you wouldn't be allowed to sell it. It's only because of Brexit that we're able to sell it. So it's just really fascinating that a lot of these environmental websites that say we'd supply the best eco products think OXO Biodegradable is a good product. And I guess we'll dive into whether it is, whether it isn't in this episode.

Oxodegradable plastic was invented in the 1970s by Gerald Scott

But, just wanted to share that kind of real shock that I gave the home owner when I said, actually I'd probably just replace that with like normal bin liners because they're probably made of recycled plastic. So OXO biodegradable plastic or oxoegradable plastic was invented in the 1970s by Professor Gerald Scott who was a polymer scientist. It was commercialised around the 1990s. So this has been around for a long time.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, yeah, I've only heard it in the last sort of 10 years or so in earnest.

James Piper: But yeah, okay, yes it, I mean I guess in the more recent, in our more recent history plastic has taken on such a negative attitude. In fact I saw some vintage adds the other day for plastic where it was like What did it say? It said something like plastic stronger than paper, toss away prices. Like oh my God. So at the time this was being invented that was the attitude to plastic. Right? So oxoegradable wasn't needed. And as we've got kind of further down down in time and plastics become something that is leaching into our environment, people have looked for solutions at oxoegradable is potentially one of those solutions. The reason this product is so fascinating is because there is a real worldwide divide. It is an item as I mentioned that is banned in Europe and will probably be banned in the UK at some point and there's lots and lots of bans happening of this product but it is mandatory in lots of other countries and typically these are oil producing countries so we can kind of read between the lines of like what does that mean? but it is mandatory in certain products in Saudi Arabia, the uae, Pakistan, and there are other countries that promote them including South Africa. Robbie and I know you are about to go to South Africa for a month O I'm going to set you the task of report, find out.

Robbie Staniforth: I'll be talking to some of the people in the plastics who run the plastics packed over there as well. So I'm sure they'll know all about it. Okay, yeah, I'll find out.

James Piper: Let's find out. And certainly when I travelld the world I saw them all over the place. We were in Brazil, in Parate I think it's called and I was having a meal in a restaurant. They served me an oxo degradable straw and I saw it all over the place as we travelled. So it is just one of those materials that is super divisive. Some countries think it's the best thing since slice bread Hovis not the podcast and some people think it is just something that should be banned. So have we got to this position? So let's talk about what it is. So oxodegradable plastic. I'll just use the catch all term as in oxoegradable not biodegradable. Oxodegradable plastics are essentially normal plastics. So your pe pep pet just normal plastics. And then they add an additive which is typically a metal salt. So we just add a bit of metal basically. And what that does is when they add that to the feedstock, when they add that to the plastic, it means that if the plastic were to leach into the environment, the metal salt that'been added to the batch will cause it to break down faster.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, so that's all it does. It's still normal oil based plastics that you've just added an additive to.

James Piper: Exactly. It's still

00:25:00

James Piper: normal oil based plastic. You are just adding an additive that makes it break down faster. And obviously the ad for this then if you were to create like an elevator pitch for this material, if you were on Dragon's Den, what you would say is, hey, if this thing got into the ocean it's going to break down faster. And what the critics would say is, yeah, but you are designing something for it to be discarded. You know, you are making something very difficult to recycle. We'll come on to that in a second. And you are making it so if it ends up in the environment, it's okay. Which technically means you're sort of promoting it going into the environment rather than being captured and recycled.

Robbie Staniforth: And so no one's printing please litter this item on the bag. But that's sort of what's being ###erred by the critics.

James Piper: Yes, and there is a bit of housekeeping here because we say a lot of like just in that section we've said in the main and usually and there's always going to be exceptions this rule. So let's not I mean you can write in if you want to. It'll be putting in additions and corrections. But we are aware of things that don't follow this rule, you know, where you might not used an oil based plastic or you might not use a metal salt as an additive. But I think in general this is how it works. You end up with a normal plastic that has had something added to it that means it's going to break down faster. And we kind of have to use generalisation 't go into the kind of extremes of this. I saw a lot of this plastic while I travelld the world and actually I was kind of I thought what I'll do is I'll just load up my phone, go into the photos and search the word oxo because Apple's pretty good at like finding the wor oxo things.

Robbie Staniforth: You using that AI how much energy Is that to.

James Piper: And most photos that came back with the word OX1 were actually photographed in Bristol. You know, I was looking through them and I was thinking, but that was Bristol. That was Bristol. I was at a market there, I was at an event there.

Robbie Staniforth: Ah.

James Piper: and are you sure it wasn't.

Robbie Staniforth: Just the stock cubes?

James Piper: No, it was not the stock cubes. What a mis joke in my note. I love it. Great. No, it was not with stock cubes. And you know I could just, you can just tell that this material has this perception that it's environmentally friendly. So now if you're out and about in the uk you see the word oxoegradable on a plastic cup or on some material, typically things like straws, things that you might buy again. Well m. Actually you couldn't buy straws of oxodegradable, could you? Because they would be under the plastic band.

Robbie Staniforth: Absolutely.

James Piper: So as I said, the naming is really important.

Oxodegradable is a catch all term where something degrades

So let's quickly talk about that. So there's, there's. You're looking for anything that's got the word OXO in really. So not your stock cubes, but you're looking at oxoegradable. OO biodegrad. Oxo, a fragmentable. Anything that starts with oxo.

Robbie Staniforth: Oxo fragmentable. You've made that up.

James Piper: It's come up, it's come up in my research. Really I've never seen it but maybe it's a way around it. But anyway, so just look for the word OXO at the start and typically we'll be talking about this kind of material. Now this is where it gets interesting because it's sort of like the difference between biodegradable and compostable. So you know, when we had that compost website we said there's like biodegradable which means something breaks down, but it's not really defined. There are some standards, but they're not as obvious. Whereas compost possible has some very strict standards. So the industry would argue that oxodegradable is a material is kind of a catch all term where something degrades and it will degrade potentially into a microplastic. Okay, and this is what critics say. Critics say, well the trouble is if you put an additive in plastic to cause it to break down faster, it breaks down to a microp plastic. You now can't pick it up. So if your plastic bag get swept into the sea and someone takes it out and litter picks it or it gets, you know, taken in by one of those boats that we're going to talk about in a future episode. it's been collected out of the sea. It hasn't become a microplastic. If it's got an additive and becomes a microplastic faster then you can't take that the sea. And now it's become part of that food that everyone's concerned about for health reasons. So there is actually a downside to things breaking down faster. Ah, again the industry would say yeah, but it, it stops turtles getting wrapped up in it. It stops, you know, wildlife getting caught in bags. So again it's an extremely divisive topic where you can definitely sit on both sides of this. You can say, well I'd rather have my large plastic breakdown faster because I don't want the wildlife to get injured or I'd rather not because I'd like to get it out of the ocean actually. And I don't want the microp plastics to enter. So you end up.

Robbie Staniforth: But it's if it's oxoragmented to a small piece that a fish swallows anyway rather than the bag that it gets wrapped up in, like what's the difference? It still sort of seems bad environmentally though, doesn't it?

James Piper: Yeah, again it's quite complicated. So this is where the industry says the naming is important. So ah, oxodegradable is kind of this catch all term that might break down to microplastics. And they say oxo biodegradable_gradable will break down beyond the microplastic to be eaten by bacteria. So they say well ok, it doesn't stop at a microplastic. It carries on, it keeps getting smaller and it gets small enough that bacteria will eat it. And that is kind of the difference in terms of the naming. Oxodegradable is like it catch all term. That just means it's going

00:30:00

James Piper: to break down, but it doesn't say when it stops breaking down. And oxo biodegradable they argue and will ll come on to whether it's true or not. Our perception of whether it's or not they argue means that it will continue breaking down to a point where it will get eaten by bacteria and that makes it not breaking down into a microplastic. So we're going to try and give both sides to this story and let you guys make up your own minds. We will give you our view at the end and I suspect we will give you some reasons as to why we feel the way that we do to try and help with this thinking. But as, as you're listening to this and you're Forming a picture. Just think about whether you think it's good or not.

Remember how you might be skewed by the media that you get given

And actually, these OXO biodegradable plastics are a really interesting topic because what I did in our office. So, when I was CEO, with the company, I was trying to see if we could discuss, like, fake news and how you might be. Remember how you might be skewed by the media that you get given. Because if you choose to read, I don't know, take an extreme Fox News, you might have a different view to. If you read BBC News, okay? So they're going to give you different stories, they're going to give you different perspectives and you will have different views. And that happens all the time in the world of the environment where, you know, depending on which publication you choose to read, you'll have different opinions. And so really, you just need to listen to this podcast. We'll. We'll just cover everything and we'll try and do it in a way that's quite balanced. So what I did was I divided the office in two and I sent one team off to a room purely with new stories that promoted OXO biodegradable plastics. And I sent another team off with a load of new stories that were against biodegr. OXO biodegradable plastics. And I got them to come back together to present to each other on what they'd found and what they thought of OXO biodegradable plastics. I think everyone sort of guessed the rouse because the stories were just like, way too divisive. But I think, you know, it was interesting having people come back and you had one team presenting, going, these are the greatest thing ever. I'm not going to say since last Breread, we've done that twice. these are the greatest thing ever. And we had another group come back going, ban them, ban the, Ban them. And it was like, wow, this is really interesting because all I've done is given you slightly different media outlets. So there we go. That's a great case study for, you know, how you need to be careful with what you read. So what we have to remember is there are countries that mandate this for certain packaging. This is not banned everywhere.

Why might you promote oxoegradable plastic? So I guess the argument is

So let's talk about some arguments for it. We've sort of covered some of these, but I'll just. Let's just summarise them. So why might you promote this oxoegradable plastic? So I guess the argument is, if it's littered, it breaks down to smaller pieces. We've talked about this potentially breaking down beyond microlastics. So that it can be consumed by bacteria. And we're going to come on to kind of an EU case law around this. But Symphony is one of the companies who make these plastics. they're a UK based company that makes these plastics. And according to them, the European Chemicals Agency was asked to study this material on the 13th. sorry. On the 30th of October 2018, they informed the Biodegradable Plastics association that they were not convinced microplastics formed. So, you know, when we talk about this kind of. Does it go beyond microplastics? There have been studies that suggest it does. again, there are lots of studies that says, no, it doesn't. So it's really quite complicated. And one of the issues we have here is the difference between lab based test results where you can recreate something in a lab. You know, like with my electric car, it says I can do, you know, 400 miles on the battery and I can actually only do 315. Because once you put things in the real world, you put wind around it or it's colder or whatever, it makes a big difference to the battery. It's the same H. In a lab, you can show that something keeps breaking down, keeps getting smaller, doesn't, you know, becomes a microplastic. You chuck that in the sea, it breaks down to microplastic, a fish eats it, you know, it's not going to carry on breaking down. You bury it in landfill, it's not going to break down because it needs the sunlight.

Robbie Staniforth: So do we know that there are things that might stop this process or is that just unconfirmed?

James Piper: Yeah, things like sun. It needs sunlight to break down. It needs the uv. So you bury it in a landfill, it's not going to break down.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, fine.

James Piper: So that's a good example of likeah. Yeah, it's not you in a lab, you can show that these things break down in the real world. It's like my leaving the spatula in for 15 minutes in the boiling oil. It's like real world versus a test. We need to constantly be questioning these things.

Robbie Staniforth: Sure.

James Piper: Now, another reason that these might be promoted is the companies do claim they can be recycled. we'll come on to that. Let's do that separately. We're a recycling podcast. Let's think about that properly. and I guess one of the pros is that it's intended for short life products that are prone to litter. They do not want it in bottles, they want it in films and flexibles. You know, and their argument is films and flexibles. Recycling is so low, the percentage collected and rec cycle is so low.

Robbie Staniforth: Which is true.

James Piper: Which is true. And they're more likely to be littered. So you end up with a. Okay, there's a compelling

00:35:00

James Piper: product type for this to go into. So those are kind of your main reasons why you might choose to use this material. And certainly in like the UAE and Saudi Arabia where they've mandated it. They've mandated it in things like carrier bags, where they've got those flexibles and films.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. It seems like a bit of a like, least worst option type thinking rather than ideological though, doesn't it?

James Piper: A bit, Yes, I think so. And if we'd look at them, why you might think these were a bad thing, where you might choose to ban them. Again, anything that's kind of a solution to litter. We're generally against anything'like. Look, this material is quite tricky to recycle. It's quite tricky to, collect up. Up. Therefore we're developing a solution for litter is a bit worrying because what happens is people have a tendency to go, oh, this will just break down. I'll just throw out on a roadside, you know. And not everyone does that, of course, but, but you mark something as biodegradable, you mark something as compost possible. People don't feel guilty littering it. And the reality is, at best, these materials claim to break down in about two years. They're still litter for a huge amount of time.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And it's, I can see the endeavour like they're trying to make it like a natural piece of packaging. The banana skin on a banana. That's natural packaging or whatever. But it, but it isn't, isn't it? It's just normal packing, synthesise this thing. it will never become like nature, if you see what I mean.

James Piper: Yeah. And also when you start calling things biodegradable, if you say OXO biodegradable, people might think, oh, I'll put it in my food waste. Because that's what we do with compostable packaging. Right. Although we shouldn't. But that is what you could do.

Robbie Staniforth: Yah.

James Piper: And so you start putting it in food way. So it's just the confusion of like, what is this material, how does it break down, when does it break down and where the hell does it go? And we are opening up a can of worms. If we allow these kind of materials to market these kind of innovations that really don't make a lot of sense in terms of our current infrastructure, they shouldn't be put in the recycling. They shouldn't be putting food waste, so you can put them in general waste. People might say, I don't want to put that in general waste. It is s going to break down. So I'll just put it in the environment. They put it in the environment, it takes two years to break down. So you can see that's quite a compelling reason for not doing this.

Nobody wants to buy plastic that once contained biodegradable plastic

Now let's come on to the recycling. So the companies who make it again have test results to show it can be recycled. And again, this is an example where a test is very different to real world. So technically these things are recyclable, they're normal plastic. Like you can melt them, you can extrude them, you can turn them into pellets, you can turn them back into can. But nobody, no brand or retailer wants to buy a plastic that once contained a biodegradable plastic. So their biggest fear is I'm putting a product onto the market that's got a long shelf life, you know, I don't know, a bag of rice, for example. O I didn't realise that this plastic had some biodegradable plastic in it. And now the bag is degrading in the shop, you know, and you can just imagine that problem happening. Whether that happens or not is kind of pointless. What's happening is the brands and retailers are saying is if I buy your recycled plastic, I need to know it didn't have any content in that could buyiod degrade ye and so recycler don't want it. It can't be sorted at the recycling centre because you don't know whether it was biodegradable or not. With invisible barcodes and things like that, I guess you could start going down that route. You could say, well, this is a biodegradable plastic, you could sort it. But in the main that's not what happens. So the sorting machines don't separate them and that makes them unrecyclable. so they are recyclable in a lab, they are unrecyclable in the real world. So you would not be encouraged to put that in your recycling. So we've got a material that can't go in your recycling, can't go in your compost bin, would need to go in your general waste bin that says on the side of it, I will break down.

Robbie Staniforth: So, I think there's so many challenge with challenges with flexible plastic recycling to make it food safe so that you can use recycled content in a new flexible plastic for Food to then, add this other element. And, by the way, some of the plastic in the system is constantly degrading. It'going to make it put up a whole other barrier towards what many of the brands want, which is food safe plastic, soft plastic, flexible plastic that has recycled content in it. You're just going to put up another barrier to something that's seen as like the Holy Grail of recycling for flexibles. Yeah, yeah. So there was, a directive from the EU, that came in on the 3rd of July 2021 and that effectively band it across the EU and that was part of the Single Use Plastics Directive. It had lots of other things in it, but this, oxidegradable plastic was banned. And the companies that made these, plastic and the additives reacted quite angrily, claiming that it was a bit hasty and there

00:40:00

Robbie Staniforth: wasn't enough consultation. And, you know, as I understand it, James, they referred back to that view that the microplastics were not formed in the science, you know, in thelic that they had from a European chemicals agency.

James Piper: Yeah. So what happened basically is they said, well, if you're going to ban a product, you have to show the environmental reasons for banning it. This was their key argument. And their argument was, you haven't shown the environmental reasons, you haven't proven that it just stops at degrading as a microplastic. And their big frustration was that the EU did not seem to distinguish between oxodegradable and Oxo biodegradable. So it used the catch all term in its ban. It said oxodegradable, which captured everything. And they felt that actually if you'd banned everything except Oxo biodegradable, that would be fair. So that was the logic. and we've got all sorts of. I'm not going to go deep into the regulations here, but the EU has lots of rules on how it bans things and it has to meet certain criteria. And the company's argument was it hadn't met that criteria. this actually led Symphony, who we mentioned earlier, Symphony Environmental, based in the UK, to take legal action against the EU. They sued for £82 million, for reputation damage and loss of company value. And actually, a year ago yesterday, I think, as this episode goes out, rather than us recording. I think I did the maths.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, yeah.

James Piper: So I think it's a year ago yesterday, as you're listening to this, they lost this case. And the European Court of Justice found that the EU had followed research that existed and some of that research actually was done by Some local companies to us. So, you know, mia, based in Bristol, who we know reasonably well, they had done a report on OXO biodegradable, alongside others, and the European Court of Justice, the EU had followed that research. A lot of it was down to that recyclability piece. So if the EU were saying that it's not recyclable, it shouldn't be put in recycling, therefore it's not a material that we want, and that was. That was how we've ended up with this band. Symphony responded just to give this balance, saying this meant EU officials could legislate without an environmental impact assessment, which they felt wasn't fair. But, you know, I think, the contacts I've reached out to have said, look, this is quite a strict process, and for the Court of Justice to, throw us out and to say, look, you, we've looked at this and we're still comfortable, I think suggests that actually the eu, policymakers did follow their guidance and did follow their legislation, because this has been looked into and appealed and they still lost.

Robbie Staniforth: So, yeah, and those people, we know that a bit closer to this than us, they sort of say the right result was had and it probably is the right environmental result, don't they? Whether all of the channels were followed or not. I suppose you can sort of see Symphony's point of view, can't you? It's like they just don't think a, due process was followed.

James Piper: Yes. And closer to home, in the uk, it's not banned, as I can tell you from my trip to Cornwall. but since it can't be sold in the EU, there's not a lot of it in the UK, because most companies that trade with the UK will also trade with the EU. in October 2020, there was a bit of an outrage in the UK because the BSI, which is the British standard institution, was creating a standard for compostable plastics, I believe, called PAS9007, if you want to look it up. And it was sponsored by another company like Symphony, called Polymateria, who also make this material. And it had in it this standard and ability to support plastics with additives. And what it had done was it. It was basically checking for microplastics at the end of the degradation process, not during it. So what it was saying is, if you've got a material and you break it down and at the end of its life it's not a microplastic, then it's perfectly acceptable for market. And the argument from industry was, but if it was a microplastic, halfway in that journey, then a fish could have eaten it, it could have leached into the environment, it may stop degrading. So actually, you shouldn't just look at the end of the process and say, are there microplastics there? You should look throughout the degradation process.

Robbie Staniforth: What happens during the process. And this led to that open letter, wasn't it, in, October 2020, that was signed by some big guns, Tesco, Waitrose, Aldi Co Op. And it basically said how degradable materials such as this encourage litter, really? And that's not something that those retailers, wanted to get behind. And it kind of reads, these materials contain additives that accelerate the conversion of microplastics, macroplastics into microplastics after months or years of laying in the open. And so really they're kind of saying, look, is that process? And the retailers really, our dist are pretty dead against it, it's fair to say, isn't it?

James Piper: Yeah, they were very strong on this. They said the UK voted for the EU ban when it was proposed in 2019 and failing to act now could turn Britain from a leader into a laggard in fighting the plastic crisis. So, yes, they were very strong. and I guess

00:45:00

James Piper: perhaps the most damning of always the government's new ram, which is the Recycling Assessment Methodology. This. We're going to talk about this. Let's do a legislation episode next week.

James: Oxoegradable plastics increase contamination in recycling stream

Let's talk about the ram, because we haven't covered it yet. Yet. And they've listed oxoegradable plastics as red, which basically means they're not wanted in this, you know, in this stream, in the waste stream. We're going to talk about that next week, the ram. But red is bad, like a.

Robbie Staniforth: Is bad. And red means big fees.

James Piper: Yes, look, it's very complicated. So what are our thoughts? I think, you know, just to summarise this because, we've talked a lot here about different things going on with voxob biodegradable plastics. I guess my thoughts on this, and I'll turn to you, Robbie, in a second, is it's never good for us to encourage plastic to enter the environment. So I don't think we should be doing that. I think recycling, whilst it is far from perfect, we all know that we've entered this podcast knowing it's far from perfect. It is the best route for single use material. And, you know, if we look at the hierarchy, obviously the best thing to do is to reduce our plastic use, then it's to reuse plastic, then it's to recycle it. At no point is it and then throw it in the ocean because it's going to degrade fastaster oxoiodegradable plastic increases contamination in the recycling stream, which risks us not being able to recycle. And I guess for me it boils down to quite a simple thing that lots and lots and lots of people in the industry who I trust and know well, who have no monetary interest in OXO biodegradable plastics, want it banned. And the people I know who want OXO biodegradable plastics will make money from it. And so for me it just boils down to that, like just a litmus test of like, is this good or not? I don't really know. It's a bit miss, as to whether this is good. It could be anything. Like, I just look at the people who talk to me and say I don't like it and I trust them so much and I look at the people who really want it and they are making the stuff. So I think for me that's probably where I land that it's not as cut and dry as I thought it was when I started thinking about this. It's not as obvious that it's like a really bad thing. But. But I do think, in the main it's not something I would be promoting.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, I tend to agree, James, with all of the reasons you've listed. I think it really is, it's a step backwards and it seems so, the way it's marketed, it sort of seems like this perfect solution, or very simple solution to a complex problem. but when you dig into it, it really isn't good stuff.

James Piper: Rubbish or not.

Susan asked about orange netting and whether it can be recycled

We had an email from Susan. Thank you very much, Susan. Asking. And you've actually had lots of people ask about this. But Susan is the email I found asking about netting for oranges. So you go and buy a load of oranges and they've got some netting around them that I think I mentioned. I have similar things with like firewood. You sometimes get this orange netting and you know, lots of fruit will have this kind of netting, so orangey plastic around the fruit. And first thing to say is I got really interested in IFL Science, the website which I assume stands for IE freaking Love science, as opposed to something that will get us some of our explicit mark. and they said the reason orange companies, as in companies that make orange, put orange netting around, is because it gives the impression that the orange is a richer, colour. And if you have an orange that's slightly lighter, not as orange. The orange netting comes of changes that for us with our ey. And they do it similar with lemons. They put lemons in yellow bags. Again, it just enhances the natural colour. And this principle is called the confetti illusion, which is a visual phenomenon where the perception of colours is influenced by its surrounding context. And Robbie, I was trying to explain this to you. Yes, I looked up, you know, have you seen the Coca Cola can where it's like blue background and then it looks like a red Coca Cola can, but when you actually zoom in, it's just black and white and it's just cry the blue context. So if you haven't seen that, look up like Coca Cola can illum Bl. Confetti illusion. And that is why they wrap it in netting. So that's super interesting. So Robbie, what's it made of and can it be recycled?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, so, it's made of polypropylene. Thanks to contacts at the plastics charity Recoup. I reached out to them and they were very speedy in their response of yes, it's made of polypropylene and yes, it is recyclable with plastic bags at supermarkets. So if you're collecting up your soft plastics, I recommend that sometimes they've got like a papery tag, don't they? So rip that off. That goes in the rubbish. But the actual net bag itself is made of polypropylene and absolutely can be, recycled.

James Piper: Amazing. And as alongside the pab it'also got that metal clip, so you should cut that off as well. Yeah, we don't want that contaminateting the stream. So, yeah, really interesting one. I, I felt they could be recycled. I guess they were polypropylene. So I was delighted to have that validated. And But I think to our listeners that's probably a surprise. I think most people wouldn't imagine that's made of plastic. So. Yeah, great. Rubbish or not. Thank you, Susan.

00:50:00

James Piper: Rubbish question.

Martin asked whether electricals can be recycled in electrical recycling points

And we had an email in from Martin with this question following some of our discussion around electricals and batteries. So we did the collection, sorting and recycling of electricals and batteries over the last couple of months and he had a couple of queries. So he was asking whether we can put the following in electrical recycling points. So I'll just give you both RO items which plug in but have a built in non removable battery like an electric toothbrush, and items which don't Plug in but have electrical components in them. So like an electronic toy that's battery powered. So basically we've got non removable batteries and battery powered electricals. are they electricals and what do we do with them?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, so they are both electricals and they can both be recycled as if they are electronics. They actually get categoriseed slightly differently in terms of the waste electronics, electricals, regulation. But, they are absolutely electronic devices. You should recycle it with electronics rather than with plastics. I think when it comes to those toys, it can be a bit confusing because you feel like the circuitry in them is absolutely tiny and the rest of it is like mostly plastic or whatever, by volume. But actually it does have to go through, electrical recycling. And what they'll do is when they smash it up, et, the plastic will be the predominant material, go off in one area and then the batteries will be removed, so will the circuit board and that will go off to a different process.

James Piper: Perfect. And if the battery is removable, would you remove the battery and put that in a battery collection point?

Robbie Staniforth: Yes, definitely. If it's removable, absolutely. Take them out. That's going to have to happen at some point Anyway, doing the right thing and being a good recycler, you should take them out and put them in a separate collection. I would think of it similarly to washing out your recycling before you put them in the bin. It's not the end of the world. But to be a good recycler, you should be washing things out. You should also be taking the batteries out because that will eventually happen at some point in the process.

James Piper: Anyway, thank you, Robbie and thank you, Martin, for the question.

So we've reached the end of our episode. Thank you for listening and for leaving reviews

So we've reached the end of our episode. Lovely. Do you fancy doing a legislation one Y yah.

Robbie Staniforth: I think that. I mean, it's so topical at the moment.

James Piper: Is this the second Robbie's take?

Robbie Staniforth: Robbyie's takeover?

James Piper: Yeah, after vape. Gosh, how exciting. If you enjoyed the vape one, listen out for Robbie doing m most of the talking next week. I'up for it. Perfect. So thank you so much, everyone for listening. Thank you for leaving us reviews. We just, as we say every week, we really, really appreciate it and we love all the engagement we get. So please continue to do that. Please join our discord and get in contact with us that way. It's the only way of contacting both me and Robbie. And if you just fancy contacting me, our socials, are rubbishpodcast. Our email is talking rubbishpodcastmail.com we also have WhatsApp and all sorts of ways to contact us, all of which can be found in our show notes alongside our link tree which gives all the links of the things we've talked about today. Thank you so much for listening and we will see you next week. Bye.

00:52:58