31. Shattered - the end of glass packaging?

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James Piper: Hello, welcome to Talking Rubbish, a weekly podcast air wining deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and one sided stories. In this episode, we will discuss how tires are collected, explore whether the new legislation could be the end of glass. Are the widgets in Guinness rubbish or not? And what exactly is the green dot? I'm James Piper, author of the Rubbish Book, and I'm joined by Robie, Stanifforff, my far from rubbish friend. Hey, Robbie.

Robbie Staniforth: Hey, James.

Someone emailed me saying they disagree with my views on Drs

James Piper: I an email yesterday.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, yeah.

James Piper: So a couple of weeks ago, I think I said I've done three forgiveness requests on trs.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, gosh, no. This isn't another one, is it?

James Piper: this is the fourth week where we're mentioning it. Apologies everyone. I couldn't ignore this one. It was someone else emailing to say they disagree with my views on Drs. Excellent. We're going to talk about that today. I'm very, very pleased that we've created a debate that's always good.

Robbie Staniforth: Ye.

James Piper: But I could not ignore this email. Oh, gosh, I won't name them because I'm going to give way too much identification here.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: But it was someone who enj the podcast, and they wanted to add to the parile of people who disagree with me on Drs. Lovely. Yeah, I have my apology completely ready for when this is wrong, by the way. When DRS is amazing and we're getting 95% of our Cansa bottles back and I'm completely wrong. I'm ready. I'll apologise.

Robbie Staniforth: Sure.

James Piper: Okay. But this particular person who emailed me and the reason it caught my eye is that it was the anaesthetist.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: At my local hospital.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay. So I going to be putting you.

James Piper: Under at some point soonly. I saw this and I instantly emailed him back to say, look, you may one day be put me to sleep. In the event this happens, I hope we can put our differences on d our ass aside.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, dear, don't be using that same hospital soldier.

James Piper: He responded, urging me to let him know if I ever come in so he can let staff know I'm a vip. Of all the things on my launch rep podcast bingo card, VIP status from the NHS was, was not.

Robbie Staniforth: You could be the first ever to be granted it.

James Piper: So, there we go. It's getting dangerous now. There's Drs views. Getting people who might actually one day amputate something and put me to sleep, like not agree with me. Really, really made me laugh. And, I'm not questioning this guy's professionalism at all, by the way. It was just, it was really funny.

Tesco are releasing limited edition bags for Life to replace their normal ones

I also saw an ad campaign from Tesco yesterday. So in the uk, our biggest supermarket is Tesco, right? That's our biggest supermarket chain. People internationally may not be as familiar with it and they have Bags for Life. And if you need a reminder on carrier bags, it's worth checking out episode four where we talked about the fact that actually people are buying fewer bags for life than they were single use bags. Sure, but the bags for life are so much heavier, so we're actually using more plastic. And the coal estimated we were using 440% more plastic because the average person is buying something like 57 bags for.

Robbie Staniforth: Life a year, just buying more bags than they need for getting to take them back. Ye.

James Piper: And of course there'll be people who don't buy any bags for life who don't agree with that and there'll be people who buy lots who are like, oh, I'm part of that. What was weird is Tesco are doing an ad campaign where they are, temporarily replacing their logo on the Bags for Life with collectible words. So they've got this whole new campaign called It's Not a Little Thing, It's Everything. And they are releasing limited edition bags for Life to replace their normal Bags for Life. and the Tesco logo is replaced by the words Laugh Love. Can't believe they didn't put L in for. For the Trife factor. Love, Love. Share party and treat.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, my word. So what, they're actively encouraging people to buy at least five bags for life that none of which they probably need. Is that what you saying?

James Piper: I hope not. That's my worry that, you know, I'm not against Bags for Life. They're made of recycled plastic, but I don't think they should be collectibles. I think they should be, oh, I forgot a bag, I need to buy a bag. Oh, no, I feel guilty about it. Not. Oh, I've got four. I need to get the fifth.

Robbie Staniforth: It does feel like a sales promotion on something that's sort of like more of a necessary evil than a vital item that people need in their lives.

James Piper: I am absolutely amazed that this got through a marketing team. I'm amazed that no one in sustainability, because, you know, the sustainability team at Tesco are very good. We know a lot of them, they're very, very good. I'm amazed no one, as this was being signed off, thought maybe we shouldn't make our Bags for Life collectible Are.

Robbie Staniforth: We missing something here? It just really doesn't seem to have hit the mark.

James Piper: Very odd. Anyway, probably worth a listen to episode four. If you haven't heard our views on carrier bags and heard me sat at the end of an AIs counting people, I think that's what I ended up doing.

Robbie Staniforth: It's not as weird as it sounds.

James Piper: Yeah, we're doing less

00:05:00

James Piper: of that at the moment, aren't we? We're up to episode 31 and very rarely am I out in public just counting people. I thought I'd do it more on this podcast.

Emissions Trading Scheme could drive greater recycling, Robbie says

Robbie Staniforth: Well, now you're counting local authorities on websites.

James Piper: How the mighty have Fallen Editionss and corrections. So there's been quite a lot in the news this week, Robbie, about ETS. We sort of mentioned it, on episode 16, which was our incineration episode. But this is the Emissions Trading Scheme and I just noticed lots of news on it. So I wondered whether you had any views on it, Robbie.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, so I think the big thing about the Emissions Trading Scheme is that it's like a carbon tax and it's basically it's going to mean that all of the waste that goes to incineration is going to have this tax attached to it by 2028. So the reason it's been in the news is because local authorities are scrambling to try and work out how they can decrease the amount that they send to landfill and to incineration as much as possible so that they can avoid having to pay this tax. So it could really change and drive greater recycling just by trying to avoid this tax.

James Piper: Okay. And I guess the thing here is that what's happening is, landfill and incineration are just getting more expensive.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: Landill Landfill SAC skyrocketing. Incineration's now got a new carbon tax.

Robbie Staniforth: Absolutely.

James Piper: I suspect and hope that this will drive recycling because as incineration and landfill get more expensive, what's the alternative? Well, to recycle and make something worth more money.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's exactly it. And obviously the designers have to do their part two because there is still plenty of stuff that just, it cannot be recycled. It has to go in that non recyclable bin. So the challenge is not just to, those at home to put it in the right bin and local authorities to provide enough recycling bins, but also to the designers to make sure that, you know, the stuff we consume can actually be recycled.

We really Rushed rechargeable batteries, Brian writes in

James Piper: And I also had a WhatsApp from Brian. Thank you, Brian. And I felt we did, our batteries recycling and we really Rushed rechargeable batteries.

Robbie Staniforth: O didn't we?

James Piper: We sort of just at the end you tacked it on you.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh yes.

James Piper: And I was like oh, we should have talked more about that. We should have had a whole section on.

Robbie Staniforth: I think I remembered last minute and was like by the way, you shouldn't even be using this stuff.

James Piper: Yeah. And I think Brian probably felt we rushed it too because he felt need to. Whats up in. And he said, well just as a reminder, when using rechargeable batteries, if the device doesn't automatically recharge, as in it's a phone or whatever it is and you need a separate battery charger. So if you've bought some rechargeable a'you've got a separate battery charger. It is important to get good quality batteries of course, so that you're reducing risk of fires and issues around that. But it is more important or as important to get a good quality charger. And he's highlighting that you want one that does intelligent charging.

Robbie Staniforth: O okay. Like phones do and laptops. They have intelligent charging, don't they?

James Piper: Yeah, that's it. And I've obviously driving electric car. Ah. Makes you hyper aware of all this stuff. You're sort of constantly thinking am, I degrading the battery because that's the expensive bit of the car. and so yeah, his call up was yes, you could buy rechargeable batteries. That's great. But make sure you invested a good quality intelligent charger. So thank you Brian for writing in. That was a really good addition to are very, very short rechargeable battery portion of our episode.

Robbie Staniforth: Sorry.

Rubbish podcast is supported by Eco Suretyty who help brands recycle

James Piper: And we'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsor Eco Suretyty who are on a mission to rid the world of unnecessary packaging. They help brands navigate the tricky world of extended produced responsibility. But that is not all. They also collaborate on some incredible recycling projects and consumer awareness campaigns and they are really keen to increase consumer awareness in recycling which is why they've offered to support our podcast. If you're an organisation looking to make smarter packaging choices, they've got your back. Check them out@ecourtyty.com do. I've also added a link in the show notes. And speaking of show notes, you can find everything there. So I had a look yesterday and I thought our show notes are getting so long I'm like adding a line every week because we're adding more and more stuff. So the first thing you'll see is our link for our discord. Definitely Head over there. It'getting quite lively in terms of, our little recycling community where everyone's talking about all sorts of things. Definitely head over to our discord. We have socials where we're at Rubbish podcast. Our, email is talking rubbishpodcastmail.com you can get hold of us on WhatsApp and all sorts of ways. And as I said, all of those are in our show notes. So just have a look there if you want to get in contact. Rubbish process. So we've, did do. Why did you put that face?

Robbie Staniforth: I was just looking forward to you saying it so much.

James Piper: Do I say it like the hello.

00:10:00

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, sort in away rbish. No, you say it quite quick. I think that's what I enjoy.

James Piper: Okay. Rub o process. Rubbish. I don't know how I do rubbish process.

Robbie Staniforth: You. You stress the process rather than the rubbish. Okay, I'm, sorry I'm making you ier paranoid about how you speak, which is probably not ideal for a format where you're speaking the whole time.

James Piper: I just turned to you and said, look, we just did that intro in 11 minutes. A new record. That's good f us. And, we've just wasted a minute talking about how I say rubbish process.

We need people's help with ideas on how to recycle garden waste

so, we're done garden waste. We're now going to move into tyres. Sor of we're debating what we're going to do in these rubish processes. What do we think is important? So we've got tyres now. That's really important. Then we thought light bulbs might be good. We think textiles would be good. I'm just kind of prepping people for what's on its way.

Robbie Staniforth: What's on its way? Why don't we get people to write in on discord with ideas? Haven't we've got that thread? So let's get some ideas in on the sort of rubbish process. So that's whether it be collection, sorting or the actual final recycling. You know, we can split it up if it's quite complicated in each section, but be interested to know what's useful.

James Piper: Good idea. And I did say in episode one, I'd mapped out 30 of them and this is episode 31. So we are in uncharted territory now. O this is why we need people's help. so, yeah, but, once we finish rber's process, we'll move into rubbish news. So there's no pressure, but if anyone's got any material, they're thinking, I really want to know how that's collected and recycled. Just put it on our discord or whats sapp me and we'll just add it all in and we'll finish this up and then move into news in about five to 10 weeks, depending on how many we get.

Robbie has been researching what to do with discarded tyres

So, Robbie, how are tireres collected?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, so this was great looking into this. I really had fun yesterday, looking and researching around what to do with tyres because it's something that it's necessary, isn't it?

James Piper: Has anyone used the word fun though, in this context?

Robbie Staniforth: Come.

James Piper: This has to be the first. Is it fun? Yeah, I absolutely loved it. The guys that Quick Fit, the guys that Quick Fit are having a party every day.

Robbie Staniforth: Those lucky, lucky guys at Quick Fit. The first thing to say though is there's no extended producer responsibility for tyres in the uk, so there is for packaging waste, electricals, batteries. Even the vehicles themselves have produce a responsibility, but not the tirere. So every time you're replacing them, it's kind of up to you to do the right thing as the citizen, because the manufacturers are not paying for them to be disposed of. So that's the important thing to say. I would advocate in the future, for them taking greater m responsibility and actually having a tariff that Michelin and Pirelli et ceter would have to pay so that they get recycled. But as it is, there isn't one. So the important thing is you've got to change your tyres relatively regularly. So this is a kind of necessary waste. If you like, you can try your best to make them last by not skidding around corners. but eventually they will come to a stage where they've met their. You know, there's not enough tread left on them and there's a legal requirement for them to have 1.6 millimetres of tread across the tyre. And let's just make sure that you're not getting rid of your tyres too early. I looked up and on Quick Fits website, they were talking about the 20p test. Have you heard of this, James?

James Piper: Yes, I have. I think, this is checking how deep your tread is.

Robbie Staniforth: Ah, that's exactly right. So the sort of the rim of the 20 pence piece must be about 1.6 millimes because if you can see some of that rim of the 20 pence piece, that means that your tire needs replacing. There's not enough tread, whereas if it fits snugly and all you can see is the inner part of the, of the coin, that means you've still got enough tread on it. So that's a great way to make sure you're not disposing of tires too early. You can do a check for yourself but obviously your local garage can help you too. Before you get them, decide what you're going to do to dispose of them. There's obviously so many options for how you could use a ty so I had a quick look through waste tys and here's some ideas. I came up with a garden planter. Do you think you would use that, James?

James Piper: Yeah, a tire garder Bl I can imagine it. Yeah, I think that could be quite nice.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. You know, it makes a slightly raised bed and you can also make a great swing, out of it. How about a tire swing in your garden off one of the trees maybe, James?

James Piper: Yeah, very nice.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: And then you could ask me about all of it.

Robbie Staniforth: Yes, I am.

James Piper: Yeah, I like them all.

Robbie Staniforth: Lots of these are for kids and I know this is maybe something you're going to be thinking about over the next few years. What about a sandbox? You know, a little outdoor sand playbox and of course the classic. You'renna maybe need to get yourself some land here, James.

00:15:00

Robbie Staniforth: But you can build a go kart track with them too.

James Piper: Well, for the cars to bump into mean.

Robbie Staniforth: That's exactly it. Yeah. The sort of barriers or whatever to make it safe. anyway, recycleow website because that's where you can find out where to dispose of tyres. They'll generally take you to your first option which is local authority site. If you happen to have them at home you can take them to a recycling centre. Some of them have limits on the amount, the quantity that they will take and some have charging, to take them off your hands. But you can look up where your local authority site is on recyclenow.com.

James Piper: But sorry, local authorities are allowed to charge for tyre collection.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. It's sort of similar to household you know, like building waste and things bulky. The bulky waste, yeah, exactly. But most commonly the, the garage that you use to replace tires generally will be the ones to dispose of it and they sometimes have a two to five pound charge and you shouldn't really be paying more than five pounds a tirere to get rid of these tireres and sometimes they even just bake that price into the quote of the new ones rather than have a separate charge. And this sent me down a wormhole on a chat thread of piston heads u which is some website for sort of car nuts or whatever. And they talked about I'm not going to pay a five Pound charge. I just burnt all my tyres in my back garden instead. So if you're listening to this podcast, it probably goes without saying, but don't set light to your tires. Do the right thing, let the garage dispose of it, properly. Now, we're going to talk next week about what happens to those tyres when they go to the garage, when they go to your local authority site. So we'll talk next week on that. And that means I've got a week to remember the guy's name who I met who operates a recycling plant somewhere in the southwest, because I really need to speak to him between now and next week. So if you are listening and you are that person whose name I can't remember and I couldn't find you on LinkedIn or through my emails, please get in contact with me. I'm desperate.

James Piper: Lovely.

Jok in a Disney film is from the film Cars

And let's end with my favourite joke from a Disney film because you said the forum was called Pistonh Heads and my favourite, I can't believe they got away of it. Jok in a Disney film is from the film Cars.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh yes.

James Piper: Where they say he's going for the Piston cup and the other character says he did want a cup.

Robbie Staniforth: O that's Mater, isn't it? It's Gotn.

James Piper: Yes. Amazing. What a joke. Trashaw. Today's title I think is too provocative but you know, we know what gets the listeners in, don't we're marketing at,

Robbie Staniforth: That's very savvy, yes.

James Piper: Is this the End of Glass? And we'll cover that towards the end.

There are four pieces of legislation coming out on plastic packaging tax

But first we're going to do, ah, a legislative update. but there, there are four pieces of legislation coming out. We promised this back in episode I think it was 28. We said we do this in episode 29 and then we skipped it because of the four weekly collections. We're just all over the place. But this is that promised legislative update and this is because the government and DEFRA specifically in the UK have been so busy in the last few weeks. I've never seen them so busy.

Robbie Staniforth: No, they really have. They're absolutely on top of the brief new governments come in. Lots of this policy was designed before the new government came in in the middle of last year. But they're just saying we've waited too long, let's push some of this through and actually get things started. So yeah, there's been so much going on. There's four real key cornerstone pieces of legislation, three that are sort of in process, sort of half in and one that is fully in. So the One that's fully in is the plastic packaging tax. It came in in 2023. It's not perfect, but there's small increases in that, incremental sort of increases in that tax every year. And the previous government did at least bring it in. So the plastic packaging tax has started, it's relatively stable. It's been in for a few years now.

James Piper: Yeah. So and the critics of that system, really, it's about the policing of it, isn't it? Because they talk about this tax and from what I can see it's like basically self declared. It's like, oh yeah, we're using 30% recycled content. People are putting products onto the market now saying, hey, it's got 30% recycled content. But a lot of that is done through mass balance, where people are just kind of going, well I put this much recycling in, so this output must have this much recyc it in it rather than actually testing how much recycled content is in it. Is that, is that a fair criticism?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's sort of it. They're going to introduce mass balance to be allowed. So that's sort of coming, which would be a good thing because it enables advanced like chemical recycling where you take it back to its original form.

James Piper: Oh, so what do they have now then, if they don't have that?

Robbie Staniforth: So at the moment it's through the actual audit

00:20:00

Robbie Staniforth: trail of how much raw polymer you bought. That's recycled versus sort of raw pellet I should say. That's recycled content versus just virgin material. And it's quite well audited for UK domestic suppliers because you can go and look at the audit trail, the tax inspector can go have a look across the books. But when it comes across from foreign countries, generally in the east, you can't audit whether they did genuinely buy recycled content or not. So when finished packaging is coming across and it's declared that it comes into the country and it's got 30%, it's a bit like, who really knows? There is no retrospective test on a piece of packaging to say that it's got recycled content in it. So you just have to take on trust really and declarations it would be illegal and tax fraud u to be incorrectly declaring it. But there are suspicions that it's happening.

James Piper: Understood. Okay, cool. Thank you.

Next piece of legislation coming in is EPR Extended Produce responsibility

That's the plastic packaging tax. And the next piece of legislation that's coming in is EPR Extended Produce responsibility. And just as a reminder, we do have an episode on this, to explain what this scheme actually is, which is our episode 8 which is called who's really paying for your recycling? So if you want an overview of EPR in general, head over to episode eight.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And so that's on its way coming in. Its s work in progress. The law actually was passed towards the end of last year and it came into force on the 1st of Jan this year. So that is in play. extended producer responsibility. But the thing is, lots of the rules come in sort of sequentially over the next few years. So things, as part of that system, such as a recyclability assessment methodology. This is that thing that gives fees for, higher fees for unrecyclable packaging, lower fees for recyclable packaging. That's not in until 2026. So there'it is technically in at the moment and producers of packaging and reporting against it. But the money going to local authority only happens a lot later this year and there's a sort of sequence of events that's going to happen, which means it won't really reach a steady state until about 2027 at the earliest, that new system.

James Piper: Thank you, Robbby.

So simpler recycling, which I just can't believe we haven't talked about

So that's epr and we have two other pieces of legislation coming in. So simpler recycling, which I just can't believe we haven't talked about yet. It kind of, it was being discussed around November, I think end of November. They had a policy update on it. I know I was on the radio talking about it. we'both had a lot of conversations about it, but it was just around Christmas time and me having a baby, so. Hasn't had its own.

Robbie Staniforth: It got lost in the mix. It's also just affects England and you know, we're at least a UK wide podcast, if not a global one, so it maybe needs its own specific England episode.

James Piper: Good point. We're up at 148 countries now, so apologies to our dedicated listeners in Estonia who are having to listen to us talk about English policy. I hope people are enjoying it. You know, maybe they think, oh, this is interesting. I could either implement this in my own country or it's how it's different to my own country.

Robbie Staniforth: I like to think that's what's going on, James, for sure.

James Piper: Yes, lovely. And so simpler recycling will get its own episode, but the premise of simpler recycling is basically to ensure that businesses and households collect their waste in a consistent way. And the main change here. And again we'll do our own episode on this, the main change here is that businesses from April this year will have to collect paper and cardboard separately to glass, plastic and metals. And they will also have to collect food waste separately and then have a general waste bin. So ats a minimum, all businesses from. It's from April, isn't it?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. This year.

James Piper: Yeah. From April this year, all businesses will have to have at least four bins. And this is. I particularly enjoy this piece of legislation because I had, you know, we've talked about us owning a building and the fact that our company has this. Has the building that we're in and we've developed it and we are developing it in a very sustainable way and we'll talk about that more in the future. But I had the facilities, manager come in to talk to me, last week and said. He said to me, oh, have you heard of simpler recycling?

Robbie Staniforth: I was like, poor person, didn't know what hit them.

James Piper: I know. One of the very few people I have not told about the podcast.

Robbie Staniforth: Did you just keep stum.

James Piper: I just was fascinated. So I just sat listening. Yeah. And then yesterday I actually had a bin management strategy meeting which was, you know, and I had to educate them because they were saying, oh, we're going to put these bins in this place because we're rebuilding the bin store. And I was like, there was not enough space for all the bins that we're going to need. So really interesting. I have experienced it as a business.

Robbie Staniforth: In the last week bin management strategy meeting. I really like the sound of that, mate. that's right up your alley.

00:25:00

James Piper: It's literally hour on bins. It was great. So, yeah, simpler recycling, that's what's coming into businesses. It's also going to affect households. And as we said in episode 29, it is so important that councils collect food waste. That is ultimately what differentiates an amazing council from a not so amazing council. And so the fact that all Council from 2026 will be required to collect food waste separately is just amazing. And then to also have paper and cardboard separate from things that can contaminate paper and cardboard. To me, this is just incredible legislation.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, absolutely agreed. And as always, Wales have already got started on this years ago. They've got their blueprint to already be doing basically what England are, implementing for households. And they brought in their business requirements for separating waste. Was it last year or the year before? It's been in a couple of years now.

James Piper: And so we will do another episode on whether this works, whether there are routes to make this better, whether what the original plans were, because they were originally much bolder plans. So we'll just go through that in A separate episode, I think. But for now it's great.

Debate over deposit return schemes comes to a head with new legislation

It's coming in and then finally, and I'm glad you've assigned this one to me, it's deposit return schemes.

Robbie Staniforth: We haven't mentioned that much before, have we?

James Piper: And as a reminder, if you want to know more about deposit return schemes, our overview episode is episode 23. And then you can come back here and just think maybe James has mellowed a bit. You know, he's got so many emails that he's, on board with deposit return schemes now, and I am. So, on the 27th of January this year, the legislation came into force. And so this is, as we said, a, couple of weeks ago, this is making it quite certain that DRS is going to come in. And what I found most interesting about this piece of legislation is actually the government and DEFRA have released some guidance and I just thought there were some things in there that were worth calling out that we didn't mention in episode 23. So let's just, let's just run through some of those. The first thing to note, so this is only for drinks containers. So, again, go back and have a reminder on DRLs in that episode and then come back here. But it's only for drinks containers and they are focusing on aluminium or steel. So cans, basically. So that's going to be your drinks cans and then pet plastic. And Robbie, you learned it last week with ourior stwart what we're goingn.

Robbie Staniforth: I was so upset that Stuart, had that on absolute lockdown.

James Piper: He was ready. And then I actually listened to his Live at the Apollo and he said it there, so I know why he'd been practising.

Robbie Staniforth: okay, so he had just been in front of the mirror for weeks before Live at the Apollo, just saying the words polyethylene teropalate.

James Piper: Yeah, that's not how he said it. Now, the interesting thing here is DRS is not going to include htpe, which is high density polyethylene. And HTP is milk bottles.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, those sort of cloudy ones. That's the natural HDP colour, isn't it?

James Piper: Yes. So milk bottles are not going to be included. Now, there's a number of reasons for this. They'll get smelly in the machines. HTP is already has a very high collection and recycling rate from our houses because really we only use it for milk bottles and you only normally drink your milk at home and so you're likely to put it out. It doesn't need an on the go deposit Return. I guess what I was interested in is are there going to be companies that move from PET to ah, hdpe. So if you were making drinks in a PET bottle, could you suddenly go well I'm going to put it in HTP and then I'm m exempt from the legislation?

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, don't know, haven't heard that on the grapevine. But I suppose technically it is possible.

James Piper: Yeah, I mean it is definitely possible. I guess something to note is the carbonation of drinks. So like Coca Cola, Sprite, all those drinks that have a carbonation to them, PET is the only plastic that holds that the sparkle in the bottle.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: So it wouldn't happen for them. But certainly things like smoothies, juices, non carbonated drinks could in theory move into an HDP plastic and be exempt from deposit return schemes. And that's going to get really complicated really fast because as a consumer we're not going to know. I mean they'll be labelling on it, but are you going to really know, oh, which type of plastic have I bought today?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, I think it will take a bit of time to settle that, won't it? But hopefully after six months, a year of it operating, people will sort of understand what's got a deposit and what's not.

James Piper: I hope so. And there is a good chance I guess that most of them would not move to HCP and instead we've move to like Tetra or a paper based carton because that's going to have a lower fee, a lighter weight, lower fee.

Robbie says it's hard to define what a reusable bottle is

So watch this space. We will keep reporting on this stuff but just an observation that it is only PET that is covered by drs. I wrote in my notes here, that reuse is exempt and you weren't having any of it. Robbie, you've written in red something completely different. Soeah, what do you understand this to mean?

Robbie Staniforth: Well basically from the legal drafting

00:30:00

Robbie Staniforth: perspective it's quite hard to define what a reusable bottle is or reusable container is. It's easier to define what a single use container is. So they're going to write into the legislation what single use is and then say items are exempt if it's not single use. Because if you say reuse then it's like well what if I reuse it once? Is it exempt? Or refill it at home from a water tap at home and then reuse the bottle. Does that mean it's a reusable container? So they're trying to find a way to exempt stuff that is not deliberately designed As a single use item, as a pet. 500 mill bottle of carbonated drink is definitely. You can refill it, but it's designed to be a single use item.

James Piper: And I guess what I found most interesting actually was the way the money is going to flow. This was a surprise to me. I don't know why it was a surprise. I just hadn't really thought, how is the money actually going to happen? What's going to happen is the retailer. Just for ease, let's give a retailer name so we all remember. So Sainsburys are going to pay the brand the deposit when they buy the drinks. So if Sainsburys are buying a load of Pepsi, for every Pepsi can they buy, they will pay Pepsi 20p.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, if it's a 20p deposit, we're not sure about that, but let's just use 20p as an example.

James Piper: So the brand then passes it on to the deposit management organisation. So, the retailer is currently 20p down.

Robbie Staniforth: 20P down ex.

James Piper: They've passed it to the brand. The brand has passed it to a deposit management organisation. That means the money is already with the scheme administrator before the drink is sold, which I just hadn't appreciated. I kind of thought the drink gets sold the 20 p'claimed it's then passed along the chain. But actually what's happening is the 20p is paid at the point that the retailer buys the product of the brand. And so it is really essential for the retailer to claim that deposit back from the consumer. And I just thought, Yeah, I just hadn't quite appreciated how money was going to move in Drs.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, absolutely. They're definitely incentivised to be charging the deposit because they paid it. So you will be seeing a 20p in this example on your container when you're buying it from a retailer.

James Piper: Yeah. And there's some weird exemptions, aren't there, in,

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, yes.

James Piper: You know, retailers and urban areas are exempt if they've got a smaller store. That sort of makes sense because you can't necessarily hold the machinery, although you could do a manual deposit. But I guess the one that I'm a bit confused by is you could apply for an exemption if your business is close to another return point.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: And that's not really defined, is it?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, it's not defined. But hopefully the deposit management organisation, who will soon be set up in the next few months to manage the whole system, they'll have the map that has an overview of how accessible our return points. And you do want lots, you Know we as citizens want as many as possible so it's easy to take containers back but it could be a bit silly to have in a run of u, high street shops say where drinks are sold in several different retailers to have them all hosting a reverse vending machine or a return point so you can apply for this exemption. There's no indication about how easy it is going to be to say look the guy next door have got one, I'm not going to host one. But it is yeah technically possible.

James Piper: Yeah I mean to me this just feels, I don't think consumers should have to load up a map. I think consumers should go well wherever I buy my drinks from I can return them and if it's like well actually in my village just the local Tesco is the return point, not the co op and not the other stores hypothetically. It's just weird, isn't it? Yeah it, I guess stores are going to want to host a return point because they'll want to get customers back.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, I think there's a mix. Some will want that and others just don't want the hassle because of the space it takes up and also because of just the logistics of having to like take care of, you know, sending them back, et cetera. So hopefully there won't be too many of these exemptions and it will be very obvious where you can drop them off. It's definitely one of those how do you keep the system costs down? By having fewer return points. But then fewer return points mean the system probably isn't as good and doesn't get as high collection rates. So this is going to be something that the deposit management organisation is going to have to balance.

James Piper: Okay, great. And if you sell drinks for immediate consumption on the premises you can choose not to charge it. so this would be like in a cafe, restaurant, pub and I guess that just flagged a huge concern to me that suddenly, let's say I go into, I don't know, weather spoons and I order a can of beer or something, something in a can, they provide it, they say well we're not going to charge the 20p because you know, we want this to be as low cost as possible. Weather spoons for those who don't

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James Piper: know are a restaurant pub chain in the UK that strive for low cost so they might say well we're not going to charge you a deposit but I now have a can that's worth 20p. I could go and take it back to store. So suddenly what you're going to have to have police in store, as in security in store checking. You're not leaving with your cannon bottle.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: Because it's worth 20p. I mean, it just feels like everyone should be charged the 20p and just get it returned. But what they're saying is, well, in a restaurant, is it fair for you to have to go back up after you finished, claim the money back? Okay, fair enough. But I just think this is open to people misusing this.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And I think they might have to find a way that they, I don't know, nullify the deposit in some way so that you can't just not be charged the 20p and be able to walk off with the container and claim it from a street down the road. Because there will be people who are trying to game the system. you know, it. We might not have to worry so much that it's going to be widespread and generally people will do the right thing, but there will always be those fringe cases and you want to try and limit them as much as possible.

James Piper: Very good. This has become an unofficial DRS episode. Sorry, everyone. So, for piece of legislation, it's really important they all come in on time.

Robbie Glass: EPR fees could mean end of glass packaging

I guess we need to answer our question, our provocative question that we started with, which is, why could this mean the end of glass packaging? And this is a very, very serious comment from the glass industry saying, actually, these pieces of legislation, because they're weight based, are skewed in a way that really affects glass. And there is a logic to that, but it's just worth us just going through that in a little bit more detail, what this could actually mean. and we mentioned this at first in the DRS episode, that the glass industry is being very vocal about EPR fees. But, Robbie, do you want to just talk through the timing? Because that's kind of where they're most worried, I think, isn't it?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. So, basically, these, extended producer responsibility waste management fees come in for all packaging that goes to households, except for those that are going to be part of the DDRs system in 2027. So what we're going to have over the next couple of years is pet bottles, as you mentioned, and aluminium and steel drinks cans that will still be in household waste. They will be collected from our homes for the next couple of years. But the manufacturers of those containers, those drinks, won't be paying any fees. And the reason that they're exempt is because they'll be paying a lot of money to set up this deposit return scheme. So there'll be a huge Investment over the next few years in reverse vending machines and setting up the system, etc. So you could sort of say, you know, it's kind of fair enough. It's not like they're getting away scot free and not putting any money into the system, they're putting money into setting up this new deposit return scheme system.

James Piper: And has that skewed the fee? Sorry. So with epr, my understanding is the government's gone. Okay. The total cost of collecting from households is one and a half billion or whatever it is. And then they've divided that up, they've gone to cover that one and a half billion. We need this much from glass, we need this much from aluminium, we need this much from plastic. Did they lower the one and a half billion to say, well we're not including the costs of collecting plastic bottles and cans or did they actually include that and they're just now being covered by other companies?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, so it's diffuse and covered by other companies because they're all producers at the end of the day is the logic that need to cover the cost.

James Piper: So you can see Glass'point I'm going to put, talk about glasses. If they're a person, they saw bar. I mean there's very specific people taking on this mantle. but you can see Mr. Glass's point. Gary Larss, as we said in the baby episode that you know, cans, bottles, they're all ending up in my local authority collection and Coca Cola, Pepsi, whoever are ah, not picking up any of those costs.

Robbie Staniforth: Ye, no, that's exactly right. And it is spread across lots of different producers. So you know, lots of different producers will pay a bit more to cover the fact that those aren't being covered by the costs. But I think more specifically SAF for an aluminium can, it's the rest of the aluminium. So foils, aerosols, how much are they paying for the fact that cans aren't getting a fee? And likewise for plastic, how much of the pots, tubs and trays, flexible plastics paying for the fact that the PT bottles, are not manufacturers, are not being included.

James Piper: It's a tricky one, isn't it, because you can see both sides. You could see the cans and bottles, guys, again. Yeah, but TRS is costing us a fortune. We're implementing a whole new system that means you're not going to have those fees in two years time.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. But then there's also offset against that is what is

00:40:00

Robbie Staniforth: the most valuable thing in the waste and that's the aluminium cans. And then Followed, by the PET bottles, which are already highly recyclable, as you've mentioned. Hence what you've talked about. Is there a need for a drs? So it's not like these are absolutely huge costs in the system compared to the costs of collecting all of the other things which have a much lower material value once they've come to being recycled. So it is a little bit of a web.

Glass PAC UK has now been set up to set fees for packaging

And this is exactly why we wanted to talk about these two pieces of legislation, EPR and drs at the same time, because they are, interlinked and so on. EPR as pertain Glass PAC UK has now been set up, that's the scheme administrator who will set the fees. and they've released these fees, these waste management fees or base fees, some people, know them as. And that basically says how much you're going to pay per tonne, of materials placed onto the market. And they've taken into account not just the weight, because obviously glass is very heavy, but actually also the bulk density, so how dense it is, because glass is very dense compared to say, soft plastics and things. And so it's technically, much more expensive to run a truck that's actually full of air, as in for soft plastics, because it's all, you know, very volumous, but not very heavy than it would be to run, run a truck to get the same amount of volume of glass.

James Piper: Yeah. And Val PAC actually released a table with the grocer. So if you want to see this, it's in the grocer. Looking at the kind of the cost per unit of EPR fees and in the top 10 that I can see, in the top 10, eight of them are going to be glass. So eight of the most expensive EPR fees are going to be glass per unit. the two plastic ones are, detergent and fabric conditioner and cooking oils, which Both had about 3 pence per unit. But if we look at the top one, spirits, I mean spirits is adding 12p per unit. Now obviously spirits are high value. We with re paying what, 25, 30 quid for a bottle of spirit, but 12p for your packaging on top of what you're already paying is very significant. And you know, wine at 10p, you've then got glass water bottles at 6, 6p. Now, I don't know. There's an argument to say they should have high EPR costs because glass is very carbon intensive at this point. The industry are working to kind of electrify their furnaces. So in Future it would be less carbon intensive but right now it's a very carbon intensive to meltdown glass. There is an argument that because refill is exempt from this legislation the glass industry should be moving to refill. I really believe that. because then you can be completely excluded from the cost and you've got the perfect material to do it. So I kind of have not that much sympathy for the glass industry because I think push refill. But I also can see their point that actually this is just going to make this packaging material so expensive that people are going to look for plastic and paper alternatives.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And I think m the macro view across all of the materials is newsflash. It's going to be more expensive to sell packaged goods because we're going toa have to start paying the costs. You know the producers, everyone is upset. It isn't just the glass sector. all the materials say it's going to be really expensive to use my format and they're going to change to a different format and there's going to be winners and losers and at the moment they are all coming out and saying we're losing out under this system. It isn't fair. So it's quite hard to know what's exactly going to happen. The one that I'm definitely most worried about is my glass beer bottle. That's for sure. Like whens that going to move into a reusable container because thats s the one at five 7p according to that study. I wonder if its five 7p per bottle know whether its really going to translate to something meaningful in the prices on the shelf. I hope not.

James Piper: You live next to your favourite brewery anyway Robbie, I think you should just be wheeling home a keg.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, well actually I should have brought. I could have held it up to the camera. I've got a huge glass bottle. I think it fits about two and a half pints that my local brewery gave me during Covid actually during lockdown.

James Piper: Which you reserved for just after podcast recordings.

Robbie Staniforth: Absolutely.

James Piper: God I need to in half pints.

Robbie Staniforth: That's about what I need after these. Yah.

James Piper: Rubbish or not. So we got struggling to get away from beer here. It won't surprise anyone to know that I am on the Facebook group Doll Men's Club along with rest of the rest of the uk.

Robbie Staniforth: Dol Men's Club. I've not heard of that. shows how out of the loop I am.

James Piper: A lot of our listeners will we'gonna

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James Piper: be like oh God, this is like I don't even know. You literally have left me. Speech toless. I do not know how to respond. There are millions of people in this group.

Robbie Staniforth: It's just.

James Piper: Yeah, it's just a place to share dull things and if anything gets too exciting, it's quickly shut down. Became big, like a couple of years ago, and I honestly thought you'd be in it. Notus you're dull, but thanks, mate.

Someone on DL Men's Club was asking about the widget in Guinness

Anyway, someone on DL Men's Club was asking about the widget in Guinness. So in a Guinness, can you have the. The nitrogen ball in it? Which we'll talk about in a second. And someone was asking the group whether this is recyclable and what you could do it. I thought, what a great opportunity to put this in the podcast. So we're actually doing, as we've said before, talking rubbish live, which will have gone out when this episode goes out. so we can't promo it anymore, but hopefully we got a good enough recording that that will become an episode. We were interviewing one of the packaging technologists, packaging scientists at diaio who distribute Guinness. So, yeah, I'm not sure we're going to get to talk about the widget because we're focusing on paper bottles, but it did make me think, oh, now is a good time to talk about it. Yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: this widget, I mean, I'm a big Guinness drinker, so I know all about this. What this widget does to pour the perfect pint, and it genuinely is needed, James. It does on.

James Piper: Then what does it do? Because I don't drink. I don't drink Guinness. I went to the Guinness factory in Dublin, ordered. I got my free Guinness at the end of the tour and I asked them to put black currt in it to change the taste. So I'm not a goodinness drinker at all.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. So Guinness isn't carbonated like most other beers. It's nitrogenated. I think that's a word. And so what that means is you need to get air into it when it's pouring. And the way that taps are set up in pubs does that. But when you just crack open a can and just pour it straight out, it will just be dull and lifeless and not have that sort of creaminess. You need some aeration to get the creaminess of the drink to come through. And that's what this widget does when it's bobbing around in the can as you're pouring it out. And it does definitely lead to this, rich, creamy head. I really fancy a pint of Guinness.

James Piper: Now just talking you two and half pint glass, yeah, talking about again recycling them. So the widget actually stays on the top of the can and then when the can is opened the pressure is released, and all of that stuff gets released out of the widget, as you said.

Robbie Staniforth: Ye.

James Piper: Now, interestingly, I searched this on Google last night just to see what would come up and I got some generative AI which is quite big on Google. And it said, yeah, it can be recycled. Best thing to do is to cut the can in half, take the widget out, recycle it in the plastic. Really I was thinking we're going to go completely against generative AI. So hopefully Google are getting this transcript and we can change the generative AI narrative because I would never be cutting a can open. I don't think that's a good thing to do. I think be. I think once you start talking about cutting cans it's like you're creating a hazard. Whether that's a hazard for you, you could slice your finger on it, or a hazard for the recycling operatives who are picking up your waste. They're sorting for Bristol, they curbside sort it. So they're taking all the stuff out of the metal bin and putting it in their metal bin. Let's not create sharp, hazardous edges. And then also when it gets to the murph, if it's hand sorted you, that's going to be really dangerous. So just don't cut cans open, I think is generally good advice. And really what's going to happen is leave the widget in. I think it's pretty unlikely to be recycled. There is a chance it will go to a mrf, get shredded. They'll pull out the can with magnets or eddy currents and then the plastic that's remained might get separated. But it's smaller than a tennis ball. It's a little plastic ball made of polypropylene. Reality is it's probably just going to get melted with the can and it will get skimmed off the top. So when they melt the aluminium, things that they don't want rise to the surface, they skim them off and it'll just get incinerated or disposed of from there. So my advice is don't cut cans open, even if that's what Google tells you to do and lots of websites I should add, and just instead leave it in the can and'send it off to be recycled if possible.

Robbie Staniforth: That's exactly right. And I must say I got done by the marketing. They released a nitro Surge can last year, or was it the year before? recently. And basically that's a little electronic device which is an alternative to a widget. And what it does is use. Uses an ultrasonic transducer to, form those nitrogenated, bubbles. And that's what I'm using at the moment to pur my perfect Guinness. But it is a little, very specific electronic device. I'm going to have to be using it for the next 30 years to make it worthwhile saving on all of those widgets. So please, please, please, Guinness and diaio keep selling those

00:50:00

Robbie Staniforth: special nitro surge cans because I've invested in the device now.

James Piper: And if we're still doing this podcast in 30 years, I'll check in with you. I'll add it to my notes for, 20. What would it be? 2055. Rubbish question.

Lizzie on Discord asked us about the green dot on packaging

So, so Lizzie on Discord asked us about this, which is thoughts on the green dot. But, this kind of moved up the agenda because I also had an email from Paul and Paul said that he buys Digby's food from tails.com. i did not proceed to find out what species Digby is or anything. I have no, no knowledge of this. But presumably Digby is a dog. And he dutifully looked for the recycling label to see if they could recycle the wrapper from the dental choosing curbside collection or if it needed to go back to a supermarket. Paul, it needs to go back to a supermarket. There is no instruction on the packaging, which he was a bit concerned by. And again, I think we'll explain later why there would explain on another episode why there might not be the recycle or don't recycle label on packaging. But one thing it did have was the green dot. Now, how are we going to describe the green dot? It's on most packaging. I can't think of any packaging you won't find it on. And it's two arrows in a circle. So you've got like a circle shape with two intertwining arrows. And I will put this up on our socials. So rubbish poodcast on Instagram. It'll be on our stories because we have a label section on our stories. Have, a little look there if you want to see what the green dot looks like. But Robbie, this is a. This is probably the most confused logo, isn't it?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, it is because it seems like it's an instruction, but actually it's just a mark, that was introduced in Germany to say that a tariff has been paid Very similar to what we discuss in episode eight in the, who pays for your recycling in the uk? This EPR system we've talked about a lot in this episode, it's just basically a dot that says the tariff has been paid in Germany.

James Piper: Yeah. And each country has a licencing organisation. So in this country you would pay a licence fee to put it on your packagingact but it is completely meaningless in this country. Lots of people think it means, oh, this packaging can be recycled. So not what it means. What it means is in the country that the green dot was relevant for, probably Germany, their legislation has been paid for. So in the same thing we talked about in episode eight, this kind of produced responsibility system, they just created a mark that says the thing has been paid for in the country that it was relevant for. It is completely meaningless in the uk, so if you see it, just ignore it.

Robbie Staniforth: It.

James Piper: Is that good advice.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, great advice. No, that was really fun. It was good to get into like, how all these bits of legislation work in one another. Hopefully people find that really, helpful.

James Piper: Thank you all so much for listening to yet another episode of Talking Rubbish. We really appreciate it and as always, we love the interactions. Really enjoying our talking to everyone on Discord. So please join that and continue to use that. Obviously you can get hold of me and any other way as well using RubbishPR on social talking rubbish podcast, atmail.com on email or you can WhatsApp us using the link in our show notes. Everything we talk about, and I mean everything, is in our show notes. So feel free to have a look there if you want the links and we will see you next week. Bye.

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