33. Why finding plastic in the ocean is harder than you think

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James Piper: Hello. Welcome to Talking Rubbish, a weekly podcast delving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines on one sided stories. In this episode, we will discuss how light bulbs are collected, why you could never visit the Great Pacific Garbage Patch art, tomato tubes, rubbish or not. And how will smaller brands be affected by extended producer responsibility? I'm James Piper, author of the Rubbish Book, and I'm joined by Robie Stanifforth, my far from rubbish friend.

Robbie Staniforth: Hey, Robbie, how's it my brew?

James Piper: Hey, you're in South Africa.

Robbie Staniforth: Absolutely. I'm getting down with the local lingo.

James Piper: Yes. And it's a Sunday, not a Thursday. And why is that, Robbie?

Robbie Staniforth: Because literally on Wednesday the Internet went down in the place that I'm staying here in South Africa.

James Piper: We're leaving at a key part of the story there. Friend of the podcast, Robbie's dad, decided to try and make the Internet faster, I think is what I did.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, he was trying his best to throw the signal a bit further so that I could record in this room, which is like a sort of separate little room on the property, and in the course of doing so disconnected some wires and, yeah, couldn't get it to come back. So we had to wait a couple of days actually for the Internet technician to come out and fix the whole thing.

James Piper: Lovely. We knew there'd be issues with you being remote. Expect your dad to be the cause.

Robbie Staniforth: I know. No problems with the Internet for the last five years until the day I'm trying to record a podcast.

James Piper: I have a big addition and correction today. Just, a new story I spotted that I thought we could get a bit into.

Robbie: I've been spotted doing bin spotting in South Africa

so I guess let's just before we get into that, Robbie, how is South Africa? Have you noticed anything? What bins have you spotted?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, I've been spotted doing a lot of bin spotting. The one thing that I must say is waste is pretty universal these days and what they collect at the curbside here is very similar to what you see in the uk, which makes me think the Talking Rubbish Podcast, that's why it's in so many different countries, because we're all consuming and using very similar goods every day. Very similar packaging and things. I've been amazed how similar it actually is. I've not really seen much of the OXO biodegradable packaging, that we were hoping to spot in South Africa, but I've definitely seen biodegradable straws absolutely everywhere. Like in every little restaurant and, bar that I've been to so far.

James Piper: You say hoping to Spot. But I'm glad. I'm glad.

Robbie Staniforth: Well, glad we didn't. But we suspected that I would see a lot. but I honestly haven't. And you'll be really proud to hear that just this morning I walked down to the local beach and had a sauna in one of those like portable movable saunas, you know, in the back of the horse box type thing. They plunked them on the beach. Lovely you out to see. And I got chatting with someone in the sauna and gave out our card afterwards with the QR code. So you should see at least one extra stream.

James Piper: Additions and corrections.

Dr. Caesar has a big one this week. Almost Trash Talk edition

As I said, I've got a bit of a big one this week. This is almost a trash talk. But I just thought we've got to cover this. It's really interesting because lots of people sent it to me. So I am sorry to Chloe who wrote in about her bin colours. I'm sorry to boots for their blister pack collections. I'm sorry about the food waste article that I was on the radio. I should be talking about that. You've all got bumped to next episode.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh really? So this is a big one.

James Piper: Well, I just think it's going to take up a bit of time us talking about it. Yeah. Although I can't ignore the Brits last night, I must admit. The Brits were on, you know, the music Awards.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh yeah, yeah. I know nothing about it. So I got no idea what happened.

James Piper: No wa. Danny Dyer, was sat next to a lady. I think it was a lady. I'm not sure. Dressed as a horse.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, where is this going?

James Piper: You literally can't make it up. Well, she had like a long, you know, muzzle like a horse. And of course that meant that her glass of champagne had a straw in it. And my friends were texting me again, you can't use a straw at the Brits for your champagne. I was like, well, you can if you're dressed as a horse. Ca becausee it's going to be impossible.

Robbie Staniforth: We will allow it for horse costumes.

James Piper: So I thought we haven't even covered why you might need a straw if you're dressed as a horse.

Robbie Staniforth: But this is not. This is not that vital. Almost Trash Talk edition. And correction. That's an ass.

James Piper: That it? Yeah, that's it. We're like. We're doing a trash Dr. God dressing as a horse.

The Guardian published an article about exports to Turkey on the 27th January

So the thing I want to talk about today was an article in the Guarden and I'm starting to get a little bit suspicious that we might have a listener who works for the Guardian.

Robbie Staniforth: Soay.

James Piper: Hello, if you're the Guardian journalist who listens to us. Because on the 23rd of January, we released episode 26, which is about black plastic. And on the 27th of January, the Guardian wrote an article about that black plastic issue. So just four days later. It's

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James Piper: about the length of time it takes to write and produce an article.

Robbie Staniforth: Could coincidence. Could be a coinc.

James Piper: Be a coincidence? Yes. So the second one was that on the 30th of January, which was, our episode 27, we did one about exports to Turkey, and again a couple of weeks later there was a Turkey export article in the Guardian. So I think we need three to decide it's not a coincidence, we need a,

Robbie Staniforth: Is there a third? Not yet.

James Piper: Not yet. But if they want to write about the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, today's Beday.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, we'll see.

James Piper: Can't wait to read it. Anyway, as I said, this was an article from the middle of February about exports that I was interested in. Actually. Look, I'm going to be completely honest. This was a very emotive and difficult, article to read. And lots of people shared it with us. It was all about exports to Turkey. Specifically, they were talking about plastic. It actually comes from a book called Waste wars, which is by Alexander Clapp. And it's released the day we're recording this, which was Thursday. It's not being released the day we're recording it because Robbie's dad cut the Internet.

Robbie Staniforth: But a couple of days ago. A couple of days.

James Piper: Had we. Yeah, it was released last Thursday. so if you want to buy this book, it's called Waste wars, as I say, by Alexander Clapp, I've got hold of a copy, so I'm looking forward to having a read through. The article actually tells the story of a Kurdish farmer in Turkey. Now, he owned a load of citrus groves, and one night someone came along and dumped some rubbish next to his citrus croves and they set it on fire. This caused a fire to 50 acres of his orange and lemon trees. Oh, God, it's horrendous, you know. When the fire was out an hour later, he had a look at the packaging and found that the prices on the packaging were in euros and pounds. So, obviously this book is going to be full of stories like this which are really horrendous, like the worst examples of waste management. And I guess the first thing to say is we have to remember that in episode 27 we explained that as a Percentage more paper, cardboard, aluminium, and steel are exported than plastic. So while this is a horrendous article and it is a really sad story in terms of someone dumping a load of was seting fire to it, causing him a problem, what was really interesting is in the article the only packaging that was mentioned was a paper carton. So, this farmer had joked that maybe his orange juicer come back to him. You know, this was a line in the article, so maybe my orange juicer come back to me in the form of this paper carton. So the only packaging they actually mentioned in this pile of rubbish was a paper carton.

Robbie Staniforth: Ye.

James Piper: Now I did a quick search. Bear in mind that more paper, cardboard, aluminium and steel are exported than plastic. I did a quick search for mentions of each of those materials. There were 2 mentions of paper, 0 mentions of cardboard, 2 mentions of aluminium, 4 mentions of steel, and 75 mentions of plastic.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, in the article.

James Piper: This was in the article.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, yeah, okay.

James Piper: Just in a short article. So I guess my point here is that the only packaging that's mentioned in the story is a paper carton. The picture is clearly a variety of materials.

Robbie Staniforth: Ye.

James Piper: And the only thing that's mentioned in m the story negatively is plastic. You know, and I think, as I've always said, consumption is our issue. Not, you know, material type is a big issue, of course, as in, in terms of carbon recyclability, there's loads of things. But very rarely do articles talk about consumption and overconsumpption. They talk more about we shouldn't be using plastic, we should be using other materials. I'm just explaining that that will not stop exports, illegal exports, dumping. It will not stop any of those things because those materials are also exported. So as I say, very difficult story, you know, tragic that it happens. It was interesting because I had my in laws come over and they were saying, you know, wow, recycling really doesn't work. And I was thinking, okay, I need to get into this story, I need to really understand it. And it literally has the line in the article here, I'll read it out to you. Recycling is not a myth. It is possible to turn an old issue of a newspaper into a new issue of a newspaper. It is possible to turn an old aluminium can of Dr. Pepper into a new aluminium can of Dr. Pepper. I'm going to skip some stuff because they start talk about electronic waste. The idea that the majority of plastics could ever be effectively recycled was to prove by and large a con. An attempt to impose a cirular economy on a Material to which it does not truly apply. It has never been possible to function or economically convert most old plastic into new plastic. The process just doesn't work. And I just feel like we have to respond to that. I've actually got in front of me here, I bought this special especially because I was like, I've got to, we've got to talk about this.

Robbie says article putting consumers off plastic recycling is a problem

So, here in front of me, I've got a Coke Zero bottle. And on it it says, I'm a bottle made from 100% recycled plastic. And Coca Cola in this country, not all countries, but in this country, as far as I'm aware, their 500 millilitre bottles are made from 100% recycled

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plastic. I think they're big. Bigger bottles are 30% recycled plastic. You know, and the reason there's nothing to do with function and you know, this can be 100% recycled. The reason companies get a bit worried about it is because if you take a close look at this bottle, it's got a slight brown tinge because. Yep, that's what happens when you use 100% recycled. And people were like, oh, we don't want to, you know, put consumers off with our slightly brown bottles. Well, Coca Cola invested heavily in recycling plastic and now make their bottles out of 100% recycled plastic. So we have to challenge the plastic. Recycling doesn't work. We can prove it works. I think it's just. And obviously we're talking about PET or widely recycled material, but, you know, plastic packaging tax, which requires people to use 30% recycled content proves that it can work.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: As always, this stuff comes down to economics. It is complicated. And I think again, any article or anything that puts us off recycling and says we shouldn't be recycling is a problem. There's definitely a consumption issue that we should be talking about. But in this article there were three uses of the word consumer. You know, they hardly talked about the fact that we all buy too much. They hardly talked about that we could be using refill. None of that was in the article. It was just plastic recycling doesn't work. Which I just don't agree with.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, so this is an addition and correction of someone else's article.

James Piper: No, I'm additioning to ourort episode.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, fine. I thought, I thought you'd gone rogue. That.

James Piper: No, I read this export article and I thought this is a good addition to our export episode because it's very relevant. We talked a lot about Turkey.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: And Yeah, I mean, it carries on. It's worth reading the article or the Book actually I should say. But there are lots of things you can just feel this focus on plastic. So for example, it says here, even if old plastic could be turned into new plastic at a profit, it is not a process that could be replicated countless times as it can with say, steel. Okay, true, after two or three uses, plastic wears down beyond ability. That's not true. It's not two or three uses. depends on the plastic. But it will be way more than that. But that's the same as paper. You know, paper wears down every time you recycling that fibre gets shorter. So again, it's just like, why doesn't it say even if old paper and plastic could be turned into new paper and plastic, why does it focus on plastic? We know why. But you what that does is it leads people to go, oh great, I can just. I'll stop by Myange juing a pet bottle which by the way is widely recycled and I will start buying it in a play pic caran which is less likely to be recycled and might end up on these roadsides.

Robbie Staniforth: It's true. It doesn't solve the problem.

James Piper: It doesn't solve the problem. So really interesting article. I'm looking forward to reading the book. I think we just need to keep remembering that there is no perfect material. Plastic has huge issues and we should all be reducing how much we buy. But paper generates methane in a landfill, metal extraction and mining is extremely carbon intensive and glass is heavy. We just need to buy less. And what we actually need to make the economics balance is we need strong legislation mandating recycle content. We need a ban on exports. I think we need to talk more about whether we should be banning exports and how we go about doing that. Robbie. And as consumers, we need to reduce how much we buy. We'd like to take a moment to thank our sponsor, Eco Surety, who are on a mission to rid the world of unnecessary packaging. They help brands navigate the tricky world of extended produce responsibility. But that is not all. They also collaborate on some incredible recycling projects and consumer awareness campaigns for those tough to recycle materials. And improving consumer awareness is exactly why they're supporting our podcast. So thank you to Ecos Sureity for doing that. If you're an organisation looking to make smarter packaging choices, check them out@ecosurty.com do. And as usual, the best place to find both me and Robbie is on our discord, the link of which is in our show notes. You can follow us on social rubbishpodcast. You can email us talking rubbishpodcastmail.com. so check out our show notes if you need any of those things. Rubbish process, Robbie.

Today we are talking about light bulbs, how do they get recycled

Today we are talking about light bulbs, as we mentioned last week. So, light bulb collection. I think we need to start with how, are light bulbs collected?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, well, this was a good one leading off the back of our conversation a couple of episodes ago with Stuart Goldsmith and he mentioned, do you remember the Phoebus cartel and this like first example of planned obsolescence? And it was one of these things where a cartel got together to try and sort of limit the lifespan of a light bulbs so that they could sell more effectively. And so that got us thinking, didn't it, about oh yeah, light bulbs, you know, those are common things that end up in people's households. What happens for those? And it's slightly complicated actually, because some light bulbs are electrical and some aren't, which is, in terms of

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Robbie Staniforth: they're all, they all will use electronics going through them, but some are disposed of as electrical waste and some aren't. so I just wanted to talk through quickly when it comes to collection that some are electronic waste, some are not, some are hazardous, some are not. So it's not quite as simple as no matter what the bulb do this thing in terms of how to get it collected, it's different depending on the bulb. So the first ones to look at are not hazardous and they're not actually defined as waste, electricals or electronics. And those are the incandescent light bulbs, the kind of old school ones, but it also includes the halogen ones. These are light bulbs that are actually quite inefficient. Lots of, energy is produced in giving off heat when really we're just wanting light from the bulb. And so they're being phased out over time. some have been banned around the world, but these ones, if you have one that breaks, you should just put it in your. They can't be recycled. You should put it in your normal general waste bin and they'll either go into landfill or be burnt for energy. And that's literally the only option you have with those bulbs, which I was surprised at. did you know that?

James Piper: No, I didn't know.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. So there's very little in there that's salvageable. And it's a very complicated mix of materials. The next set are not hazardous as well, but they are actually waste electronics. And these are the very common LED bulbs, that most people now are starting to have in their homes. And those will be collected, differently. I'll go through the collection routes for LED bulbs in a second. But you don't have to worry too much because they're not hazardous. So in the uk you can get these collected or drop them off at various places. I went to recycleourelectricals.org.uk and within a couple of miles there were two household waste recycling facilities that the local council or municipality provide and there were a couple of electrical retailers where I could go and drop off my LED bulbs for them to go on and be recycled. There's also, options and discussion around how takeback actually works for online. And so for online sellers it's quite often, the case that they won't have a take back in system in place and they will redirect you to your local council site for you to go and recycle your bulbs. And that's most businesses who only sell online will do that and very small businesses under £100,000 a year of sales of electronic equipment will be part of that system that basically redirects you to your local council site in the uk.

James Piper: Sorry. So I'm buying a bulb on Amazon and there'll be a little note saying, take it back to your local server community site.

Robbie Staniforth: That's exactly it. And when you sort of, when you search at the end of the bulb's life and you sort of search Amazon's website and you say, what am I supposed to do with this bulb? Do you send me a box or post it back or something? No, no, no, it's not that. You take it to your local site because they pay a tariff that helps to support those collections being in place. So you have to take it to your local site.

Some fluorescent light bulbs contain mercury so don't smash them

And then the final one that I wanted to talk about in terms of how they get collected is the hazardous bulbs that are electronic waste, they're gas discharge lamps and you've got to be really careful with these because they have mercury inside. So the complact fluorescent light bulbs, those were very common when the incandescent, the classic Edison light bulb, got phased out in the UK. Those compact fluorescent light bulbs, CFLs and just fluorescent tubes, also fluorescent as well, they contain mercury inside them. So the first thing to say is don't smash them. And if you do smash them, make sure you seal off and close any internal doors. Crack a window, let it air out for 30 minutes or so. When you sweep it up, be careful, don't use your Hoover because you might potentially be moving traces of mercury around. Sweep it up with like a bit of paper that you can dispose of and Put it into a bag or container, seal it up and then take it to one of these electrical waste, facilities even bagged up in a bag and that's the proper way to dispose of it. Don't put it in your general waste bin, because it does have hazardous, substances in.

James Piper: And so they can go back to just a store take back point, can they? They don't have to be dealt with even though they hazardous. They can just go to a normal store take back.

Robbie Staniforth: Exactly. Yeah, that's right. So, but you are, you need to be careful yourself. You know, you're not, they're not so hazardous that you need to get some biohazard firm to come out when you smash one. But you do need to make sure that you dispose of it properly. And even I was reading one article and it said if you smash it on a carpet and there's little fragments in the carpet, you can't use your hoover or they don't recommend to use a hoover or vacuum clean, I should say, but

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Robbie Staniforth: you can use a bit of duct tape to kind of stick up those last bits and fragments and pull them up off the carpet and put that in into the bag and then take it off to be disposed of.

James Piper: Okay, great.

Robbie says it's worth swapping old fluorescent light bulbs for LEDs

And we actually had Ian on Discord talking about fluorescent tubes and compact fluorescence. I friend of the podcast, thanks for messaging y who mentioned that we could, if we had time, do the maths to show that it is worth swapping old fluorescent light bulbs for LEDs, even if they're still working, you know, from an energyective, the modern ones are so good, but actually it's worth swapping out the old ones.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, interesting.

James Piper: I haven't done the maths. I'm just taking his word for it because he knows what he's talking about.

Robbie Staniforth: But, well, yeah, they were a transitional technology. Those, those as it's called, you know, complex fluorescent light bulbs. And they've actually been proven to be totally superseded by LEDs that didn't quite come along quickly enough in the transition. So we had this kind of decade period where these CFLs as they're called, became really common and people think are they re energy saving and they're better than an incandescent bulb. So they think they're kind of good but don't understand that they are potentially hazardous things and you really don't want to break one of them. And if you can move to led, I would do so, as quickly as you can by the signs of things. And so there were a Couple of great resources on this recolite, which is a, waste electrical scheme in the uk had a great resource talking about where you can dispose of bulbs. I mentioned earlier, recycleyour electricals.org.uk is somewhere you can go in the UK to find out where the closest place to dispose of them are. But then I also had a quick look around the world. Given I'm in South Africa, they have some grocery retailers, so Woolworths, nothing to do with the uk. Woolworth and Pick and Pay. so those are two major grocery retailers who will take back bulbs. In North America I found a mailback service so you can actually post back these fluorescent bulbs. A company called Republic Services and also a producer compliance scheme called productcare.org, which started in Canadaanss now across the US who have a whole host of retail, takeack points. And if you're in the eu, there is EU legislation for bulbs and things. So you'll be able to take back bulbs to your do it yourself home improvement stores and electronic retailers.

James Piper: So to summarisee, Robbie, because that was really useful. So when we collect up light bulbs we're looking to return them safely somewhere and we've got sic community sites. Lots of large stores have, the capability to recyle. I was actually just having a quick look at the postcode checker on recycle your electricals and they're navigating me to like a B and Q and John Lewis near me. so lots of big stores, I know Tesco have them. Lots of supermarkets will have them'have collection points for light bulbs. So again, if you go to recycle your electricals, you'll be able to find out where your nearest one is. And then if you're buying them online, make sure you have a look on the website to find out where they recommend to take them back to.

Robbie Staniforth: Exactly.

James Piper: Trash or.

Robbie says Ocean Plastics is something we want to spend a lot of time discussing

So today's trash talk is why, why you would be unable to visit the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. Would you want to?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, I'm not sure many people have this on their hit list. No, no. Maybe some environmentalists.

James Piper: I suppose I'd be fascinated is the truth. But, yeah, I can understand why most people wouldn't want to go. Maybe you and I, Robbie, should go and investigate. But let me just explain how I got here because Ocean Plastics is something we want to spend a lot of time talking about. We will have many episodes on it. But I have never changed a plan as much as I have this one because I was like, we're going to talk about what plastics'in the ocean. We're going to talk about the ocean cleanup, we're going to talk about all these things and you just very quickly realise this is going to be many, many, many episodes. And actually, we just have to start with the basics, which is how much plastic is actually in the ocean.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, it's a big and complicated problem, isn't it?

James Piper: It is. And a good place to start is the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. And I've got to be so careful because when I was writing all this, I kept writing Great British Garbage Patch because of British. Great British Bake Off. So I just know we don't have time to do a re recordd. We're very close to episode release on this one because of your Internet issues. So, you know, I've got to get this right. So if you hear me say Great British Bake off or Great Brit Garbage Patch, please stop me. So the first scientific findings of marine plastic debris were published in the journal SC in 1972. And actually Captain Charles Moore discovered the Great Pacific Garbage patch itself in 1996. I think it's fair to say it became more visible to the public. There was a 2006 article in the LA Times, where it became quite visible to the public because of that article. And I think, you know, you and I and most people in the industry would agree that plastic in the ocean became a massive conversation in the UK.

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James Piper: And that was following the release of Blue Planet 2 in 2017. And the final episode of Blue Planet 2 talked about. It was called, Our Blue Planet, and it focused on the effects humans were having on the marine environment. Robbie, did you know, actually the producers of Blue Planet had not actually planned to feature plastics or the environment in an episode.

Robbie Staniforth: Really? Wow. That was the biggest thing that came out of the documentary. It was talked about for years and years and years afterwards, wasn't it?

James Piper: It was. It was unbelievable. And the BBC just have a tendency to be like, we film nature, we don't film kind of human interaction. That's kind of the standard policy. But actually they were so shocked by what they were filming, they were seeing turtles getting caught up in bags, decided to document it. And they thought, actually, this is worth putting out as a separate episode. it wasn't just the UK, you know, this programme, Blue Planet 2, has been exported to 30 other countries and watched by over 750 million people. So this is a significant, piece of work that will have really stimulated the debate on plastics in the ocean.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, well, good on them for being so brave to actually go for it and talk about the effect that humans are having on the planet.

James Piper: Absolutely. And I think, you know, let's be fair, when you're finding a plastic bag and sweet wrappers on the bottom of the Mariana Trench, which is where they've been found, it is definitely worth sitting back and reflecting on what we're doing to the planet.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. Crazy.

James Piper: It may have changed emotion, it's fair to say, as in we all are more emotionally connected, I think, to plastic in the ocean. But it has not changed what the world produces in terms of plastic. And bear in mind, the world produces what we buy. So, yeah, it has not changed, what we've bought back. When the series aired, global plastic production was at about 348 million tonnes. And in 2023, the last day where I could find it was 414 million tonnes. Since Blue Planet 2, as that episode, plastic has increased about 20% the annual production of plastic.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. So it hasn't. While there's been a lot of conversations about it and people are. There's much more concern about plastic and plastic in the oceans, it hasn't had a net effect on how much the world is using plastic?

James Piper: I don't think so, no. And there's lots of reasons for that. Obviously we have developing countries that are starting to use plastic more and more. I've actually been reading a really interesting book. I think we'll do a separate episode on it where this book was talking about. It's about how plastic has kind of taken over the world. And it was talking about in developing countries like India, where they couldn't afford a bottle of shampoo Unilever. and P G realised they could just put it in single use sachets and that would be the easiest way. And so you're just looking back and going, that is what is happening. The world is kind of going, how do I get my brand into a country that can't quite afford a whole bottle? Well, all that all gets paid in a different way. So buying a bottle is just not really part of how they get paid viable. you know, I know we'll just put it in single use sachets and.

Robbie Staniforth: So, yeah, just smaller servings or whatever, but creates way more waste per, whatever litre of liquid vended or whatever.

James Piper: Yeah. Anyway, we're gonna do a whole episode on sachets. I know that cause, yeah, I'got loads to talk about here. I just recently bought a bottle of ketchup that I now keep in My bag because I'm fed up with sachets. That's a different topic.

There is more plastic in the ocean than fish

so as I said today, I wanted to talk about how much plastic is actually in the ocean now. I had to cut so much. These are the things we're not going to have time for today that will come up in the future. The famous rivers where plastic in the ocean is said to come from the stat more plastic in the ocean than fish. By 20 to 50, we get to debunk that. not much about beaches, rivers, freshaters, environments, the ocean cleanup missions, what actually is in the ocean. Which is really annoying because I originally tied this episode to, our tires discussion because, oh, one of the biggest sources of microlastics in the ocean is said to be tireres. Side note, tireres aren't plastic. But anyway, let'let's not go into bmanance for its own episode. So if you're thinking, why haven't they covered all that? Like the barel convention on exports. Each of those will have their own episode in the future. But we need to remember that we're not just talking about plastic in the ocean. In 2018, an Ocean Cleanup actually removed 521,730 glass bottles, but which I don't think were all messages in a bottle. You know, I often laugh nowadays. I heard someone say, I was listening to a podcast the other day and someone said, oh, I threw a message in the bottle intertion. I was like, oh, God, how badly is that aged?

Robbie Staniforth: Oh yeah, no, you can't be doing that in 2025.

James Piper: You know, but the reality is other materials, glass cans, they will sinkc to the bottom. So we don't see them. We don't have the same emotional connection to them. They don't really get researched as much. We don't know how much of these other materials are in the ocean, but we can make a guess on plastic.

Robbie: What do you imagine the Great Pacific Garbage Patch looking like

So, Robbie, let's talk about the garbage patches. Now. I was gonna ask you a question, but I know you know the answer cause I asked you to watch a video

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on this. So what I did instead do I.

Robbie Staniforth: Definitely know the answer to this. When I watch things, I don't absorb it as like a sponge as you do.

James Piper: I think you did. But, I was go goingn to ask you to describe the great Pacific garbage patch. And I just knew that you would know the answer. But let's just think about it now. So if you're listening to this and I say Great Pacific garbage patch to you, not Great British Garbage, Great Pacific Garbage Patch to you? What do you imagine in your mind's eye now? I went to some friends and I said, right, describe it to me unprompted, just describe it to me. And they all came back to say, oh, well, there's lots of fishing gear in it. And I can imagine this big pile of garbage. I don't know how big it is. Maybe like they were saying, a few miles across. it's gonna be lots and lots of rubbish, you know, just floating like.

Robbie Staniforth: A floating island type.

James Piper: Floating island. That's what lots of people imagine the Great Pacific Garbage Patch to look like.

The Great Pacific Garbage Patch is much bigger than people imagine

But this is where the title of our episode comes in. Because if you visited the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, you would not know you were there. You would not be able to see it.

Robbie Staniforth: Absolutely crazy.

James Piper: It is much bigger than people imagine. It's a about 1.6 million square kilometres, which is actually an area twice the size of Texas, or if you're on this side of the ocean, three times the size of France. So the Great Pacific Garbage Patch is massive.

Robbie Staniforth: I didn't actually know that I. Or pick that up. That is huge, isn't it?

James Piper: Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? And so it's huge, but it's extremely diluted. It is lots of small bits of plastic that are in the water, but you can't say it's so diluted you can't see it. And I actually did the numbers on this, I had a look at it, and because there was a study called Plastic Accumulation in the Mediterranean Sea, and they said that the most amount of plastic in Ag GRE is a kilo in a kilometre squared. Okay. I found some studies that were higher. Ah, it kind of. It varied massively. I found studies that were lower, the studies that were higher. But this particular study, Plastic Accumulation in the Mediterranean Sea, gave a different amount of plastic for each of the gyres. And it decided that the Great Pacific Garbage pac at its peak was one kilogramme in a kilometre squared.

Robbie Staniforth: James?

James Piper: Yes.

Robbie Staniforth: What is a gyre?

James Piper: Yeah, I was aware of.

Robbie Staniforth: Never heard that word before.

James Piper: I was aware I hadn't covered that. Sorry, I'm going in a bit of a weird order here. So. Yeah, there are five. Okay, so let's go to the basics first. We're going to come back to the dilution in a second. So there are five garbage patches, one in the Indian Ocean, two at the Atlantic and two in the Pacific. And these garbage patches form because of gyres. And gyres are just like, gyroscope you know, that kind of swirling, stable. it's basically a concentration of ocean currents. So all of the currents in the ocean in five spots around the world kind of come together. And obviously that means that all the plastic kind of goes into one central location.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, I see. So sort of like a whirlpool, but not as like dense as an actual whirlpool.

James Piper: You rins your bath out and everything goes towards the sinkhole. It's the same principle in the ocean, but these currents that are called jars actually make up 40% of the planet's surface. So, okay, we basically got five massive bathtubs.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: Around the world. And all of this waste is kind of coming into one specific spot. So there are five garbage patches which are basically where the waste is collecting. Now, as I said, the great Pacific garbage patches is the biggest of the five. And there's this study that estimates that there's a kilo in a kilometre squared. If you work out the maths on that, I think based on getting a calculator trying to work it out, I think it's about a paperclip worth of plastic in an area the size of an Olympic sized swimming pool.

Robbie Staniforth: Wow. Okay.

James Piper: So, yeah, when we talk about the dilution of plastic, you take an Olympic sized swimming pool, so 50 metres by 25 metres and there is a paperclip worth of plastic in that. Okay, okay. And that's why you can't see the patch. It doesn't be. You'd be sailing over it in your boat and it would just look like the normal ocean.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, blue ocean. Yeah.

James Piper: So there's a company, sorry, an organisation, I should say a non profit organisation called 5 Gyres. I wonder how they got that name. and they focus on reducing plastic pollution by conducting primary research. And if you don't believe me, because people will be listening to this and going, I do not believe him. I think it's just a big pile of garbage. I've got a garbage island in my mind. I would urge you to go and watch the film they produce called Smog of the Sea. Now, they produced this with musician Jack Johnson. I watched it a few nights ago. Robbie, it sounds like you watched it last night.

Robbie Staniforth: Watched it this morning in fact. Yeah, first thing I did.

James Piper: Lovely. And let me just read the synopsis. So after years of hearing about the famous garbage patches in the ocean's gyres, the crew is stunned to learn that the patches are a myth. The water stretching to the horizon are clear blue with no islands of trash in Sight. But

00:35:00

James Piper: as the crew sieves the water and sorts through their hall, a more disturbing reality sets in. A fog of microplastics permeates the world's oceans. Trillions of nearly invisible plastic shards making their way up the marine food chain. You can clean up a garbage patch, but how do you stop a fog? Okay, this is the synopsis of that film. It's just half an hour and I'll put the link in our show notes so that you guys can watch it.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, and when I watched that I was just absolutely amazed. I woke up this morning and I did think that there was a visible garbage patch that you could see. Hopefully one day someone would find a way to fish it all out really easily. Cause it's all collected together and pull it out. And then I watched this and was, my mind was totally blown.

James Piper: Yeah.

Most of the plastic in the ocean by quantity is impossible to clean up

So we're going toa talk about light ocean cleanup in the future, which is this project to take ships out to capture plastic. And you know, I, I think the reality is, as 5 gy say in the video, the truth is much worse. It might feel less worse because it's I can't see it. There's no impact. You know, I can't see a garbage patch. In reality this is much worse because you can't clean it up. It doesn't. It is impossible to clean it up.

Robbie Staniforth: It'so different.

James Piper: Lots of small pieces in a massive area. And what you're seeing in those videos of cleanups are just fishing nets, fishing boxes, things that have found their way into the ocean mostly from fishing and that you're able to clean that up really easily. But most of the plastic that's in the ocean by quantity is actually just small bits of plastic that are impossible to clean up.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, it's startling.

James Piper: You know, we have to turn off the tap as people say. We have to stop consuming as much and we have to stop letting it get into the ocean. There's not very much we can do with the plastic that's already there, unfortunately. Now that's the Great Pacific Garbage Patch and the other garbage patches will be similar.

Five Gyres use data from 1979 to estimate amount of plastic in ocean

But let's talk about the whole ocean itself. So again, five Gyres, who we talked about before this not for profit organisation, use data from 1979 and then added in their own expeditions to work out how much plastic was in the ocean. And they feel that there's 171,000,000,000 pieces of plastic.

Robbie Staniforth: Gosh. Individual pieces of plastic. That is a lot.

James Piper: 171 trillion pieces of plastic and this is just floating on the surface. That's just the surface. That's not what's them on the seabed.

Robbie Staniforth: That's just the surface in the first couple of metres or whatever.

James Piper: Yes. Now the downside of this is in their summary they say they use sample data from over 10,000 samples. It was actually 11,777 over 40 years. Thank you. Over 40 years, which I make an average of 294 samples a year. And their highest year was 886 samples. Now what was interesting is actually if you look at the data to low point was 2005. So bear in mind they've got data since 1979. It actually fell. The amount of plastic in the ocean decreased up until 2005 and it fell to 16 trillion pieces. Yeah, it was about 50 trillion the historic data when they started and it fell to about 16 trillion in 2005.

Robbie Staniforth: I'm surprised to hear that.

James Piper: Yeah. They felt there was an issue with the qualitative of data, lack of sampling from history. But also legislation came in, stronger voluntary agreements came in to reduce the amount of plastic. So there could have been a decrease in the plastic in the ocean over that time. Could have broken down and decreased. That was on the surface, remember?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: So I guess that's interesting. You know, it's interesting that it does fluctuate and it can change. I think one of my issues was actually they estimated the data between 2016 and 2019 to have jumped significantly. So from 2005 to 2016 they had an increase, but between 2016 and 2019 they had a jump of 50 trillion pieces. So just four short years we'd added to the ocean surface the amount of plastic that was in the ocean all the way up to 2008.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: And I reached out to the offersuse. I just wasn't sure about this because when you look at their sampling data, as I said, the samples were an average of 294A year across the whole study with a high of 886 in those four years. The average samples taken were 22.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. Yeah. So maybe not statistically significant enough or they're making too many inferences.

James Piper: It felt a bit like that. It was like, you know, there were four in 2016, 68 samples in 2017, zero in 2018 and 19 in 2019. So they'd taken this massive leap in the amount of plastic that was in the ocean, but had a huge reduction in sampling. And as I say, I reached out to the authors, Marcus, who actually features in the Smog of the C video and set that up said, unfortunately sample collection has not been consistent throughout the 40 years of our

00:40:00

James Piper: trend analysis. And while the sample size fluctuates from year to year, we can still assign a trend based on what the data tells us about regional abundance of microplastic based on whatever data we've got. Your error bars just get bigger when there's less data. I wish we had more data after 2015 but there just wasn't much collected then. And I suppose the heyday for plastics research was early 2000s with little before then and little after 2015.

Robbie Staniforth: Really'surprised to hear that.

James Piper: I know. And another OR for Lisa came back to me as well for the same thing. So the last four years of data set have fewer samples than previous years. Obviously not quite last four because up to 2019, but that's the latest they have. Yeah. So Lisa said researchers have been moving their attention elsewhere, researching other aquatic environments like freshw water and looking at soil and air. So again, not a huge amount being done iniation. So I know we've gone for a lot of data but I guess the summary is there was lots of sampling data up till 2015 which gave us some confidence in how much plastic was in the ocean. And now people are shifting their research to freshw water, soil, other areas and we are seeing less sampling and therefore less confidence in that data. But at that time the researchers were reporting massive increases in the amount of plastic that is in the ocean. And I guess that might be true. It might also not be true. So because there's not enough data I think to back that up. So five GYs say there's 171 trillion pieces of plastic on the ocean surface. They also said that equates to 2 million tonnes of plastic. Now if you divide one by the other, that's 85 grammes piece. You wanna know how big 85 grammes is?

Robbie Staniforth: Robbins, go on them.

James Piper: A medium Maris Piper potato. You tell I was cooking when I wrote my notes. Yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: You got your surname in there somewhere.

James Piper: Yeah, got my scales. Got my surname. Medium Marice Piper potato. Which is quite weird because we're talking about these specific garbage patches having lots of microplastic. So having an average of a potato is quite od. But that's because they're by count it's lots of microplastics. But actually by weight, 92% by weight is larger plastics.

Robbie Staniforth: Is larger plastics. Yeah. Okay. So when they've dragged out in a.

James Piper: Sample, what we have is loads and loads of microplastics by count, and then some larger plastics, which dramatically skew the weight.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

12 million tonnes of plastics enter the ocean each year, according to study

James Piper: So, yes, there was a study from euomia back in 2016, and they estimated approximately 12 million tonnes of plastics entered the ocean each year. And we'll do another episode where we talk about where it all comes from, like rivers and microplastics and things, but about 12 million tonnes are entering each year. And everywhere I looked, you sort of got to around 150 million tonnes is how much is actually in the ocean. So we've got 150.

Robbie Staniforth: The total.

James Piper: Exactly. 150 million tonnes around the world in the ocean, seafloor and surface.

Robbie Staniforth: Yep.

James Piper: 2 million tonnes that sits on the surface. So the euomia report said 1% is on the surface, 94% is on the seafloor and 5% is on our beaches.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, wow. Yeah. So that shows it's just the tip of the iceberg that they're sampling at the top of the. You know, from the first couple of metres of the sea or on the surface of the sea.

James Piper: Yeah. And it is worth noting, these are very big numbers, aren't they? I mean, huge numbers. 2 million tonnes on the surface, 150 million tonnes in the ocean. But it does represent about 1% of plastic made since 1950s. So when people say most plastic ends up in the ocean, just statistically, that is not true. About 1% ends up in the ocean and on the sea floor. Sorry. And I was about to Yoda that then, on the sea floor, most of it is, And most of it is on the sea floor. So the stuff that's on the surface is about 0.01% of what has been created since the 1950s. So, again, I'm not trying to, like, belittle that. It's huge. It's a massive problem and it's a significant problem that we can't see it and we can't clean it up because either it's on the sea floor or it's too small. So these are real problems. But I think we can challenge the view that most plastic ends up in the ocean. About 1% ends up in the ocean. And proportionately compared to how much has being created, significantly less plastic, ends up in the ocean now than it did in the past, because obviously we're making more and more of it, but it's fairly steady what enters the ocean now. Yeah, we need to stop all that. We're going to have lots of discussions in the future about how plastic gets into the ocean, how we could go about stopping it. What plastic is actually in the ocean, how much of it's fish and gear, how much of its microplastics. We'll do all of that on another day.

Only 1% of all plastic ever made is in the ocean

We just wanted to do this summary of the great Pacific garbage patch and the amount that could actually sit in our oceans.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And one of those things from the film that also is for another day is the fact that that small amount, as you say only 1%

00:45:00

Robbie Staniforth: ever made is in the ocean, can mimic things that fish are eating know. And that is the problem as much as it's not just a volume issue. It's like environmental prevalence and the fact that it can end up in the fish we're eating and in the food chain. And the fact that plastic. And that was the one thing I really recommend that people watch that short film, the 30 minute documentary that we'll put in the show notes because it just showed you how similar a shard of plastic looked to plankton or something that a fish would eat.

James Piper: To summarise our view and the views of many are the ocean plastics are a significant issue. And even though in these garbage patches that we're talking about, you can't see the waste that in some ways makes it so much worse and so much harder for us to fish out, so much harder for us to clean up. So what we need to be doing is stopping plastic entering the ocean. It's really, really important. And obviously by weight there are large bits of plastic in the ocean, but it's actually the really small bits that are devastating to environments. As Robbie says, that's what the fish are likely to eat. That's what's going to cause significant problems to food chains. It's very easy for us to fish out, a fishing crate.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: Fish out of fishing crate ended up in the ocean. Even though we don't want it to end up in the ocean. And come on, fishing industry get better. You know, it's much easier to fish out of fish and crate than it is to go through 171,000,000,000 tiny bits of plastic.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. So in fact the fact that you can't see the garbage patch is the problem.

James Piper: Rubbish or not.

Matt was asking whether tomato puree tubes are rubbish or not

Say we had an email in from Matt and I think a few people have asked us about this. But again Matt's is the email I found and Matt was asking whether tomato puree tubes are rubbish or not. Something that comes up quite a lot. He said, I'll be honest, I haven't checked the packaging. I've just always bin them.

Robbie Staniforth: O okay.

James Piper: Hopefully Matt's behaviour has changed after listening m to this podcast. Always check the packaging. just always bins them lid on. Too much fouling is on the inside so too much food is on the inside.

Robbie Staniforth: That's his.

James Piper: This is his email still.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, fine.

James Piper: Sorry, I haven't finished his email. Google results seem a bit mixed. Plus I've also heard that supermarket tomato puree is made in China but packed in Italy for authenticity. So we've got like a oh you know, let's cover off the tube and then I ll he's got provance thing. Yeah, well, important to talk about. what do you reckon Robbby tomato puree tubes?

Robbie Staniforth: Well I always recycle them so as aluminium I assume that they're going to get pulled out and recycled as an aluminium foil. But is that right?

James Piper: Yeah, I'd definitely recycle them. I mean they are basically aluminium. I think they've got a little plastic liner R because m some tomatoee is quite acidic so it'corrode the aluminium. So I think they've got a little plastic liner that's the same as a drinks can t. I don't know if we've talked about that before. We'll talk about that on another day. again online, like the Guinness can, there was lots of talk of cutting them open, rinsing them out. I just, I mean, sorry if I'm offending the aluminium industry here. I would not bother. I think it's a waste of water and I think it's creating a hazard and you don't need to do it. I personally would just put the lid back on and you know, just make sure. I think one of the things that is tempting to do with tomato puree tubes is to like roll them up and make them really small.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh yes, I do that to get the last bit out.

James Piper: Yeah, well I think that's worth doing to get the food out. But I think when you're recycling them again I would keep them tube shaped as much as you can.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, okay. Unfurl them so that they're actually quite big and can be picked up or seen.

James Piper: I think that's what I would doah. And again everyone was talking about taking the lid off. I'm just not sure I'd bother. I think I'd keep the lid on to stop ah, contaminating other food. I think it's just gonna get taken out of the process. it's too small to get recycled anyway. When we talk about tomato puree tubes it is always tempted to talk about toothpaste tubes, but I think we will do that separately.

There was a BBC investigation about where tomatoes come from

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: There was a BBC investigation. So coming back to Matt's point about where tomatoes are from. I mean, we're not really this podcast, we're not a consumer trading. But hey, my interest veificationation. So There was a BBC investigation in December 2024 about where the tomatoes come from. They did some testing of tomatoes from an organisation called Petty in Italy. That's P E T T I and Muti and Napalina. tomatoes did seem to come from Italy, as did Sainsbury's and M and S. But lots of others in the UK and Germany appeared to not come from Italy. They did appear to come from Chinese tomatoes. In response, all the supermarkets said they took the allegations very seriously and carried out internal investigations which found no evidence of Chinese tomatoes. Many disputed a testing methodology used by the BBC. However, Tesco did suspend the supply from

00:50:00

James Piper: that particular supplier. Waitress and Morrisons did run their own tests and said the results contradicted the BBC and did not show the presence of Chinese tomatoes. So, interesting investigation. I suspect that has caused all the supermarkets to up their games. And I know that Petty in Italy did say they were going to stop procuring tomatoes from China, so. So hopefully read it's true. But there you go, something I didn't even know about. So thank you very much, Matt. Rubbish question.

Robbie: Who's paying for your recycling is a positive issue

So Diana sent us an email. let's start with the positive, Diana. Oh, actually it's all positive. Thanks, Diana. But we'll start with a real positive, which is I'm a big fan of your podcast and still catching up on past episodes.

Robbie Staniforth: O great.

James Piper: And, the latest one dian I listened to was who's paying for your recycling? So that's a long time ago. What episode was that?

Robbie Staniforth: That's like eight or something. Seven or eight?

James Piper: Yeah, I think so, yeah. So, I don't know when Diana is going to be listening to this. Maybe like at this rate, August could be next year. Happy 2026. So, Diana, you're going to have to catch up because we're answering your question. she said you managed to explain a complex subject pretty clearly and it's great that companies are having to fund recycling in full. We talked about big brands, but she was wondering how the new regulations affected the smaller brands. And so I thought I would pass that over to you. Robbie, what do you think?

Robbie Staniforth: Yes, so this is one that's been talked about a lot because it's changed, slightly over the last few years with the new extended producer responsibility regulations coming in. And so small producers previously were anyone who was under 50 tonnes and £2 million turnover didn't need to do anything, they weren't part of the system, they didn't need to do much. Now it's changed to 25 tonnes of packaging that, company handles in a year and greater than £1 million turnover. So if you're between 25 and 50 tonnes of packaging that you handle and your company and your turnovers between 1 million and 2 million, it means that you do still need to comply with extended producer responsibility. But importantly, you don't have to pay these base fees, waste management fees that we've been talking about over the past, well, several episodes. And so that basically means you've got to report your data, and hold, report that annually, you've got to pay a regulator fee, and you've got to submit reports, but you don't actually finance the system in the same way that the much bigger companies who are, you know, billions of pounds of turnover, et cetera.

James Piper: And I guess that's why, I mean, it's just worth noting with the legislation, we have quite high recycling targets. Yeah, but that isn't. That then doesn't correlate to what is actually recycled. But it's because the recycling targets only apply to those large producers. So you end up with the whole section of the system that'isn't paying for the recycling. So the targets are, are artificially higher, I guess.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's right.

James Piper: Make sure enough money is flowing through the system and then the people who aren't involved in the system or don't have to pay into it, they basically, That brings the recycling target down a bit in reality, is that right?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, it brings it down, but only a very small amount. And the reason for that is many of these small companies, they'll be selling unbranded packaging and it will end up being someone else who is the producer of that packaging. And so with the way the definitions work now, it means that most packaging, and I mean, 99.9% of packaging will be captured somewhere along the line. So that's why they've reduced this threshold and slightly changed the definition of who produces packaging so that they do capture more within the system and that, the, costs are shared more equitably across the system.

There is a surfboard in the background. I suspect when we put this on social

James Piper: Great. What time is it in South Africa? Are you two hours ahead?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, two hours ahead. So it's twenty past one in the afternoon.

James Piper: Oh, lunchtime.

Robbie Staniforth: Lunchtime, yeah.

James Piper: This is the nice thing about A Sunday recording. We'like it's not. Well, normally we record like seven in the morning, don't we? This is. Yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: And then it's off. I've had a day's work. Yeah. I'm about to go surfing.

James Piper: Are you? There is a surfboard in the background.

Robbie Staniforth: There is a, surfboard somewhere in the background there.

James Piper: Yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: It's about to get a workout.

James Piper: O great. I suspect when we put this on social, it will have removed the surfboard. Cause it's kind, you know, it goes more, more portrait. That's.

Robbie Staniforth: It's just that way. It's just that way.

James Piper: Have fun. I'm very jealous. That's great. You done any like snorkelling and any diving and he done lots snorkelling and.

Robbie Staniforth: I haven't seen too much plastic. You'll be, happy to hear when I've been snorkelling around the place. Much more fish than plastic on the beaches and in the water. And same with surfing. Seen the odd plastic bag. But as we mentioned during the trash talk,

00:55:00

Robbie Staniforth: maybe it's just because it's so small. I'm not seeing it. I'm just seeing the big blue and not all those tiny little particles.

James Piper: Yes, well, keep, keep an eye out and keep reporting back.

Robbie: Mostly just happy my Internet's working

So Robbie, thank you so much for joining us all the way from South Africa'so good. I sound like a news correspondent. I'm really conscious of. Thank you. I don't need to thank you. You're as happy to be here as.

Robbie Staniforth: I am, you know, Very happy to be here. Mostly just happy my Internet's working.

James Piper: Well, thank you all so much for listening to us as always. And if you want to get a hold of us, we can be found on Discord. The link is in our show notes. You could watch that film Smog of the se. I would fully recommend that we will put the link in our show notes to that. But also if you want to get hold of us on social Media, we're @RubbishPodcast. You can email talkingruubbishpodcastmail.comt you can WhatsApp us or find out anything we've talked about today. There'll be lots of reports, I'm sure, because it was quite a data heavy episode in our link tree. And again, the link to that will be in our show notes. Thank you all so much for listening. Thank you for leaving us reviews. We really appreciate it and we will see you next week. Bye.

00:56:03