12. Which plastics have been banned and why?

James Piper: Hello. Welcome to talking Rubbish, a weekly podcast delving deep into the world of recycling and discussing the truth behind snappy headlines and one sided stories. In this episode, we will learn how the plastics are sorted, discuss packaging that's been banned, whether toothbrushes are, rubbish or not. And we have a listener question about using carrier bags to recycle food waste. I'm, James Piper, author of the rubbish book, and I'm joined by the newly renamed Robbie Staniforth, my far, from rubbish friend.

Robbie Staniforth: You're gonna make. You're gonna continue that the entire year until the next list, are you?

James Piper: You took over last week. You can have that for last week. But this week, you're back to standing four.

Robbie Staniforth: Back to Stanley. Fourth. Back to fourth. Okay.

James Piper: It's not good for the SEO if we just keep changing your name.

Robbie Staniforth: Absolutely. Okay, fine. Always thinking about that search engine optimization, James. Good stuff.

James Piper: As I was dialling in there, I was like, hello. And I've realised that's very much my, like, podcast voice. I have, like this. I default. I default to hello. welcome to talking rubbish. And it was really funny because, the producer rang me yesterday, and I've never spoken to her. We always just talk over email, because she does it. She, like, coordinates the production of the podcast. And when I answered the phone, I immediately just went, hello. I couldn't help myself. I was.

Robbie Staniforth: Did she call you out on it, or was it just that you noticed yourself?

James Piper: She said, oh, it's really weird hearing your voice just on a phone call, not in the podcast.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: Yeah, it made me laugh.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, very good.

James Piper: I had a friend message us, or message me yesterday. Message us. It's our socials, Robbie.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay, so it is us. I just don't see it until you tell me about it, Sally, it's.

James Piper: Me at the end of it who said, I forgot to tell you. And that's the frustrating bit of this story, because the fact that, unfortunately, she forgot to tell me means that I can't prove this because, the archives of the radio show don't go back this far. But apparently, a couple of weeks ago, I think it was capital radio. So hopefully we got this right. So, yeah, it was the capital radio breakfast show, and I think they had on Chris and Rosie Ramsey as guests, and they were doing, like, a book interview, and they played a game called guess the podcast from its title. And according to my friend, talking rubbish came up. Oh, what?

Robbie Staniforth: Wow.

James Piper: So they asked, what do you think talking rubbish is about?

Robbie Staniforth: And we don't know whether they got.

James Piper: It, or, I don't know, anything, literally, my friend was just driving into work and she's like, oh, I forgot to tell you, and I've forgotten what was discussed. All I know is your podcast name came up.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, wow. Well, that's great that we're making it into the mainstream media. Capital radio. That's amazing. But so what? We've got no proof that this took place.

James Piper: No proof. No, this took place. yeah. No one else has messaged me about it. if anyone was listening to capital radio, like, two weeks ago, we've got lots of listeners now. So if any of you guys were listening to capital radio a couple of weeks ago and you heard talking rubbish and maybe you happened to screen record.

Robbie Staniforth: It, I mean, now we're stretching it. Now we're stretching it. But if they know what they said and whether they just got it right or wrong, I mean, it's a pretty literal title, isn't it?

James Piper: It's a good title. If they feel it should be part of the game, I'm pretty pleased.

Robbie Staniforth: Intriguing enough to be part of the game? Yeah, sure.

James Piper: Yeah, that's good. So, there you go. That's my capital radio update.

Robbie Staniforth: Nice. I thought you were about to say, there we go. That's the intro.

James Piper: I can give you more of an intro, Robbie.

During afternoon tea, Carbos Bay forgot to give us tea

So, yes, I also went to Carbos Bay, I think I said, last week I went to Cornwall. Ellie and I went for afternoon tea, which was very, very nice.

Robbie Staniforth: Very m nice.

James Piper: Unfortunately, during the afternoon tea, they actually forgot to give us tea. so we had all of our food, and then by the time we were like, shouldn't we have tea with our afternoon tea, we had to go. So they gave it to us in a, disposable cup, which was obviously a bit of a shame. So had they remembered the tea then, that would have been great. Or had we?

Robbie Staniforth: I mean, how do you remember to ask the tea? Come on. How many sandwiches in were you before you realised you're having your third scone?

James Piper: Were going to call me out on this? It's because I'd had a coffee, so I was having a coffee and then. Anyway, it's Ellie who loves tea, so we forgot the tea, but they gave us a disposable cup. And honestly, on the inside of this disposable cup, right? So you have to have drunk, like, half the tea to see it was the following messaging. And I'm going to put this on social. So remember at rubbish podcast, if you want to see this because I just think, absolutely atrocious. It said biodegradable, compostable, recyclable, and then underneath, just bin it.

Robbie Staniforth: what does that mean?

James Piper: I mean, talk about mixed messages. So let's not spoil too much on the biodegradable and compostable front. But basically, an item cannot be both biodegradable and compostable. And also recyclable. It's one or the other. You can't have a compostable item that is also recyclable.

Robbie Staniforth: Maybe it's a new miracle material. We'll find out in a future episode.

James Piper: But if it was a miracle material, the last thing you'd put underneath that is just bin it.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's. That is strange.

James Piper: Shocking. So, yeah, I wasn't very happy with that. So I, really enjoyed the afternoon tea. I fully recommend Carbos Bay. I will not recommend their cups. And to be fair,

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James Piper: they did say to me, oh, we'll have to go and dig some cups out from, like, the basement. So I don't think they often do this. Although she did say to me, lots of people seem to miss the tea in afternoon tea. And I was like, that is your job.

Robbie Staniforth: You're possibly getting something wrong with the service there.

James Piper: So, anyway, I loved it and I would fully recommend it. The food was excellent. And actually, they, are really big on food waste. So the chef there is all about reusing stuff that could have gone to food waste. So, like, they make, cocktails with apples, where they use the core and all that sort of stuff. So it was really, really cool. From a yemenite food waste perspective, not so great on the cups.

Robbie: Refill shops sometimes feel like a health shop

Any additions and corrections, Robbie? I've got just an addition, actually, because I was talking to someone the other day about reuse, shops. And, you know, we've talked a lot about refill shops and, preserve is the one that we talk about. That's near my house. And when I went into preserve recently, she was saying, one of the challenges they have is they feel like a health shop. And I just thought it was worth reflecting because I have often thought of them as, like, a health shop. You know, in the UK, we have, like, Holland and Barrett, don't we? Which is quite a health, health conscious shop. And I sort of do lump refill shops in the same category. They've got similar branding, similar vibe. And when I went into the refill shop the other day, she said, but look at all these sweets we sell, and look at all this pick and mix, and look at all this fudge and all this stuff. She was like, we're not a health shop. Why do people think we're a health shop? And I just thought, psychologically, there's something about the refill environment that makes you think everything must be healthy. And it was just. I'm reflecting on it myself and I just thought it was really interesting.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. Sort of like sustainably sourced, sustainably delivered. Somehow merges into health, which is. They actually can be mutually exclusive.

James Piper: Yeah, absolutely. Chris emailed us. Chris. We both know Chris very well. He used to work for key cup, didn't he? And now he works for.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, terracycle. He worked for for a bit, too.

James Piper: Terracycle keep cup. Where is he now?

Robbie Staniforth: He's at, reposit.

James Piper: Reposit. Excellent. Okay, great. Hi, Chris. Thank you for m. Thank, you for messaging me.

Chris: Abel and Cole have moved to reusable milk bottles

and he wanted to point out, because we talked about refill glass bottles, we'd specifically talked about milk.

Robbie Staniforth: Yes. I keep trying to mention my glass. I'm virtue signalling every possible opportunity.

James Piper: And the kefir. Yes. So he messaged me to talk about Abel and Cole, who have moved to reusable milk bottles, like we were talking about. Interestingly, though, they've gone for a plastic milk bottle, which I think is amazing, considering the sentiment and how people, see plastic. And they actually have a really good website about this, about why they went for plastic and not glass. So what they've done is gone for a thicker, polypropylene milk bottle. This is their club zero refillable milk packaging. It's, made from 100% polypropylene, which allows for lots and lots of refill because it's thicker and it's completely recyclable because it's polypropylene. We talked about that before. What this does is it should save 450,000 single use plastic milk bottles and it saves about 60 tonnes of carbon each year compared to a glass alternative. So we talked about the problem with glass milk bottles being that the glass is so heavy that it's really, you know, once you start transporting it around, you've got to use it. I think it was about 20 times in order for it to be as good as the plastic. But if you move to a thicker plastic, sort of like ocado have done with their rice and pasta, suddenly you have this opportunity for that lifecycle to be much shorter and that need to use it so many times being much shorter. So I thought that was a really interesting call out, this Abel and cold one. And, thank you, Chris, for sharing that with us.

Robbie Staniforth: So, what? He's basically stitched me up there and says, my glass milk bottles aren't good enough.

James Piper: Yes, I think, as we said before, glass definitely has a place, and it's infinitely recyclable and it doesn't lose quality as you're recycling it. So there is an argument, and I would love to know about Abel and Cole's kind of cleaning process for these milk bottles, because obviously that's one of the challenges, and glass gets around some of that, so you can reuse it more. So I think there's a place for both. I think the reality is, I think it's something we're going to talk about soon. There's all sorts of things going on in the industry that we might be shifting around episodes a bit, which we'll talk about if it actually happens, but maybe today we'll be talking about it. But there is no perfect packaging. So whichever episode we're talking about banned packaging in, we will talk about the fact that there is no perfect packaging. Gotta do a bit of a peek behind the curtain here, aren't I?

Robbie Staniforth: This is absolutely, great.

James Piper: I love it. Let's keep it open. If you have anything you want to add or you want to correct us on anything, feel free to email us@talkingrubbishpodcastmail.com or connect with us on socials where we can be found. Rubbishpodcast and if you have any recycling tips or anything you want to talk to us about any rubbish or not, just get in contact that way.

Robbie Black talks about plastic recycling and how it's sorted

Rubbish process. This is the part of the podcast where we talk about the collection, recycling, sorting of waste. And we have done paper and cardboard, glass, the metals we've been in plastic. We've sort of done our

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top of the plastics, where we've done the seven types of plastics over the last couple of weeks, and now we need to sort those plastics. So, Robbie, how is plastic sorted?

Robbie Staniforth: Well, it comes in many forms, doesn't it? It's not like a cardboard box or seven, I think. Yeah, absolutely. And the 7th is other, which means there's much more than seven. So we need to sort the plastic by type. And that is one of the big challenges, because at home, when we're recycling plastic, we're sort of just putting it all in one place. It might be mixed with other materials on top of that, but all the plastics generally get collected together. And so the problem is that you can't recycle them all together. You can't put a Hdpe bottle with a pet bottle and still get decent, recycling they need to be separated one from another.

James Piper: Yeah, that's right. And it's to do with them, you know, the structures of the plastics, the melting points of the plastics, all those kind of things, when you try and blend them together, if you try to put pet with hdPe, because of their different melting points and different compositions, you're going to create something that's much weaker at the end of it. So we really do have to separate them out. And we've talked before about Smurfs or MRFs or whatever we're calling it. but there are also perfs, which is a plastic recycling facility. So these are facilities dedicated to doing that separation of plastics. and so with plastics, there's really two types which we've talked a lot about over the last couple of weeks. So you get rigid and, flexible plastics. Rigid are strong, like a bottle tray pot. And, flexibles are flimsies, like a crisp packet or a plastic bag. Anything you can scrunch, really what murphs are trying to do. And perfs as well, what they're both trying to do at the moment is look for rigid plastic, you know, because that's the easiest type to recycle. It's unlikely to be contaminated with any other material. And so they can just, melt those down and turn them back into plastics. If you think about flexibles, like a crisp packet, you might have a metal liner inside. It's quite a complex material. It might have multiple different types of plastic in it. they're not really looking for flexibles at the moment. Now, that will change. We've talked on this podcast over and over again about the fact that flexible collections are coming in from 2027, and so already these facilities are trying to work out how they're going to sort flexible plastics. And we were involved in a project, weren't we, Robbie, with, a company called Impact, who are looking at how to sort these flexibles out.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's right, yeah. They're making huge strides, in doing that. And so basically what's happening is just like the other materials, the plastics get emptied. Once collected, they get emptied onto a belt, goes along, one of these conveyor belts. But generally they're using near infrared technology. So, otherwise known as nir sensors, which basically is a sensor that detects the type of plastic. And, ah, air jets are used to basically blow it into the different bins and separate one rigid plastic type from another.

James Piper: Yeah. So every plastic basically has a signature, right, that these near infrared scanners can read on LinkedIn I've connected someone called Chris who works for Matoa, and they have actually developed a handheld near infrared scanner, which I just love watching the videos.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, yes, I've seen those videos.

James Piper: Yeah, it's great. I mean, they literally grab a piece of plastic around them and then they'll just scan it with this little handheld scanner and it will come up saying PP or LDPe or whatever it is. It's really, really clever. So, you know, I've seen that in action just at a handheld level and also at a MRF. But ultimately, that's just explaining that you have this signature within plastic that you can read with this technology.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And it's basically saying, look, that one's a pet bottle, stick it over there. That one's an Hdpe milk bottle, stick it over there. That's kind of what it's doing, in terms of, when it goes across the belt.

James Piper: That's right. And there's two main challenges to near infrared scanning. Black plastic. This is where we've had in the past, people saying black plastic can't be recycled. and that's because they use carbon black, which is basically the same black that you have in like a printer, an inkjet printer, where that carbon black is just doesn't have a signature, basically, and it stops the signature of the plastic being reduced. So in the past, where. And we'll, I think, I don't know if we'll do a trash talk on black plastic. We'll do something to talk about it more, talk about the stats behind this. But ultimately, if it's on the conveyor belt and it's made with carbon black as its colouring, it blocks the signature being red, which is why it's very difficult to recycle black plastic.

Robbie Staniforth: And we understand that the supermarkets have done a lot over the last five to ten years to try and reduce the amount of black plastic that gets used. And if they do use black plastic, not to use this carbon black version, they've developed ones that can be read by these sensors. But generally what's happened over time is the supermarkets. Cause they were often used for things like, tomatoes and punnets and things, mushrooms, et cetera. They've moved away from that black plastic just so that it can be. It's not about recyclability, it's about the sorting bit. It's just that the sensor can't

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Robbie Staniforth: see that it's a plastic that could be recycled if it's got carbon black in it.

James Piper: That's right. And the other challenge for, near infrared technology is when you've got sleeves on a bottle. So if you think about in the UK, if we think about like a leukocyte bottle, you know, where it's got that kind of complete plastic sleeve on it, often near infrared technology will read the sleeve, not the bottle. And if that's made from a different type of plastic, then it's not going to sort it correctly. And so one of the ways to solve that, and something that I know Lucasf did do, certainly with their sports drink, is to make the sleeve much smaller. And so the sleeve needs to cover less than 60% of the bottle in order to be read correctly.

Robbie Staniforth: And the other method that we've been involved in, more closely, again, you mentioned it earlier with impact solutions, is a sink float technology to try and basically if we, think back to the different densities of plastic you use, they basically float at different points. So once you've got it shredded up into pieces, what you can actually do is literally put it into a water tank. You can basically, float them at different densities and they'll settle into the tank and you can actually separate your HDPe from your LDPe, for example.

James Piper: And the other thing you can do, to sort plastics, which is the future, and we're not going to talk much about it today because it's definitely going to be a trash talk, is you could tag those plastics and, we work with a company called Polytag who do this, where they put basically invisible barcodes on the packaging that can be read at the murph. And we also, have done some things with a company called Grey Parrot who use AI technology to read different types of packaging. So they look for bottles and things like that using AI. So there's loads of work being done in this area to work out how to sort plastics without those technologies, without near infrared. Can you sort them just by having barcodes all over them that we can't see with the human eye? and we'll talk about that in the future, but it's definitely worth us just mentioning that now. Trash talk.

Robbie: Why can't we just ban all plastic?

So, Robbie, I think we talked about this one a few times, actually. We've said we'll talk about the packaging that's been banned or the plastics that have been banned. So let's talk through what packaging has actually been banned.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, this is one of those things where we get a lot of, people writing in or just conversations I have about why can't we just ban all plastic? Which is kind of quite a blunt, and challenging, you know, why can't we, if it's so bad for the environment, maybe that's the right way to go. But what we have to remember is there are some places where, just conventional plastics are the right application, and prevent food waste. In the example of the cucumber, call back to episode nine, where we talked about how the sleeve keeps it fresher for longer and reduces food waste. It protects stuff, it keeps it airtight and watertight. it's often lighter plastic, so it's easier and lower carbon to transport. And it's so versatile, it can go into any shape and it isn't fragile. So there is like, you know, this, this sentiment that, why can't we ban all plastic? We should definitely be have having some bans and we'll talk through those in a second. But I think it would be too blunt an instrument, as they say, to ban all of them.

James Piper: Yeah. When I wrote the rubbish book, actually, I had this idea as a yemenite reward I could give people, because I did it through like a Kickstarter type project. And one of my rewards was going to be the rubbish cards.

Robbie Staniforth: oh, yeah.

James Piper: Which I have actually designed. I have developed them because. Yeah, because I realised that. Yeah, I'll show you later. Because I realised that packaging, if you think about like, top trumps, you know, top trumps.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, yeah.

James Piper: No, well, so the card game where you're basically, you've got score. So let's say you were doing like superheroes. You'd have like, power, I don't know, strength, whatever it is. You'd have a score.

Robbie Staniforth: Agility.

James Piper: Exactly. You'd have a score from like one to ten. And then you battle each other and you work out who's got the highest number. And I thought this is perfect for packaging because the trouble with packaging is nothing's perfect. So, like, plastic is lightweight, glass is heavy, glass is 100% recyclable, plastic isn't 100% recyclable. And so you end up with this. Actually, if you thought of weight, recyclability, collection rate, a couple of other things, you could very can't remember what they are. You could very quickly create a game where, like a top Trump's game, where it's like, wow, okay. This is a great way of teaching people that no packaging is perfect. Good.

Robbie Staniforth: concept. You've just put it out there now. So you've lost any sort of ip on it.

James Piper: Yeah, that's okay. I own the rubbish cards website and trademark, I think, so. Feel free to, I think so. I definitely own the website. I suspect if you put rubbish. Sorry, rubbish cards in, you'll probably get to our podcast website, actually. so if, maybe I should develop them. If you're interested in them, let me know on WhatsApp or

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James Piper: email. This would be a great way to me to work out whether it's worth, giving those to our listeners. So, yeah, let me know. But it's a really important thing about this kind of packet. No, packaging is perfect. Plastic has. Definitely has a use, and it's important for us not to ban things and then find that the replacement is much worse for the planet. So in 2022, talk about bad replacements. They banned plastic straws. Oh, yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: This really gets people going, doesn't it?

James Piper: Yeah, it gets me going. I hate a paper straw. I hate that people just give a paper straw because they're like, oh, look, it's environmentally friendly. Here's a paper straw. So you're being in, like, a pub, and they'll give you a drink, and then they'll put a paper straw in it going, look, it's environmentally friendly. It's like, I don't need this straw. Why are you giving it to me?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, it's so often you just don't need any straw. you know, there are some people, obviously out there, medical reasons, et cetera, who must have a straw, and that's kind of fair enough, but that's a very small proportion of the population, actually, most drinks, you don't need a straw for.

James Piper: Yeah. And also in 2022, they banned plastic stirrers and cotton buds. And we talked about that with Natalie's episode. So she'd done a great job of making sure cotton buds were made of cardboard and not plastic. So those are the three main ones that were banned in 2022. And then in October 2023, the government went a step further and also banned single use plastic cutlery, balloon sticks, polystyrene cups, and polystyrene food containers. So, again, we've talked about polystyrene before.

Robbie Staniforth: Or styrofoam, as I said, styrofoam for.

James Piper: Our friends in America.

Robbie Staniforth: Absolutely.

James Piper: And, you know, I think of my late night kebabs as a student, as my, like, this is my go to when I think about polystyrene containers.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, I know exactly what you're talking about.

James Piper: yeah, I'll just say again, as a student, not last weekend.

Robbie Staniforth: That didn't happen last weekend. Yeah, I promise.

James Piper: I promise.

Robbie Staniforth: Well, hopefully not in polystyrene food container anyway. Because they got banned on the 1 October 2023.

James Piper: Exactly. Definitely not. And at the time that they were being banned, the stories were things like 4.25 billion pieces of plastic cutlery and, 1.1 billion single use plates. So it was huge amounts and only like 10% of that was recycled because the reality is it's hard to capture. It's on the go. So these are good bands. I would say there are question marks about what then replaces them, which will be a different trash talk. When we talk about things like wood and cutlery and biodegradable stuff and compostable stuff. We'll talk about that another time. but I do think it's worth recognising that actually a lot of this stuff was pretty pointless and I'm pretty pleased to see it banned.

UK government bans single use plastic containers and balloon sticks

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. It's strange how specific the UK government went with these bans, like balloon sticks. It's not really something I spend much time thinking about. Maybe once a year when there's kids birthday parties and things, they want a balloon on a stick. But it's sort of. It seems weirdly specific, don't you think?

James Piper: Yeah. And there was never any news story that said and, this many balloon sticks.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: You know, it was always cutlery and takeaway containers. I don't really know how.

Robbie Staniforth: I think maybe it's because, you know, helium balloons, children let child lets go of balloon and you sort of see these sticks in hedgerows or whatever in farmers fields because they land 10 miles away from where they were let go in the nearest city or something. That's probably why it was maybe not as a quantum, like a huge thing, but maybe as a visibility type thing. you sort of spot them.

James Piper: Yeah, that's absolutely right. And single use is defined as an item, just so we're clear on what the definition of single use is, it's an item that is only meant to be used once for its original purpose. So whatever it was designed to do is just use once for that. And this ban, these bands covered everything. They included biodegradable, compostable and, recycled in those very specific categories. So anything made from plastic, you just weren't allowed.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, I'm now just trying to think about what replaced them. You know, the polystyrene food containers. But, I think we're going to get to that in another episode.

James Piper: but I can tell you, Robbie, because I actually, searched on Amazon because I thought actually what these bands do really well is they don't actually really help the takeaway owner. And like, when I was, when this news came out, if you look up the news stories, it's like takeaway owners don't know they have to do this, you know, so there's a lot of news stories about like takeaway owners not knowing what it actually does. It stops the manufacturing industry, because if you make, if you make polystyrene trays and suddenly that's banned, are you going to keep making them? Probably not. You know, you're going to move to something else. And so I don't think it's really that engaging for the people who run these restaurants. Traders take away places.

Robbie Staniforth: Sure. It's not about what they choose to buy, it's about what's available for them to use.

James Piper: Exactly. So I thought I'd just search on Amazon for polystyrene container to see if I could buy some. And actually what came up were things like, packaging made from sugarcane, palm leaf, compostable

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James Piper: packaging, and the worst thing I've ever seen, it was called the renewable eco friendly black takeaway food container. And it was like, I mean, it was black. And we talked about the issues with carbon black being read by, the scanners, the near infrared scanners, and it just. Yeah, I mean, the second you've put the words renewable eco friendly in front of the word black and, and we've already described how difficult that is to recycle, I think we start questioning whether it's possibly renewable and eco friendly.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, it's one of those advertising standards authority jobs by the sounds of it.

James Piper: Are you going to dub them in? No, we're very good on this podcast. so anyway, if you are selling that, it'd be good, probably to adjust the colour. There's no need for that to be black and it would make it much easier to recycle. So the ban applies whether the item is m wholly or partially made from plastic. So it can't have a plastic lining, anything really, that contains plastic in those very specific categories. and it includes online overcome sales, all sorts of things. So basically everyone who was using single use plastic cutlery, balloon sticks, polystyrene cups and polystyrene food containers had to stop using it. and really for me, what I found most interesting in doing the research for this was the exemptions. I thought the exemptions were more interesting than the rules because they just gave me this image of a packaging, you know, underground mafia type thing. It was amazing. Just the wording the government choose to use. Okay, so for example, there's a lot of exemptions for straws.

Robbie Staniforth: A lot of exemptions for straws, yes.

James Piper: So you are allowed them, in like registered pharmacies because obviously if people are using them to take medication, you're allowed.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay. Yeah. But crucially for medical use.

James Piper: Yeah, but you're not allowed to display them. And it's like, it conjures the mind. Like cigarettes, it's like you get. They just have to be hidden in a drawer below the counter.

Robbie Staniforth: Really? Okay. Wow, that's interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. So you can, if you need them, get them if you genuinely need them.

James Piper: Yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: Well, again, pharmacy.

James Piper: Well, yeah, but I just don't think anyone's making them. So even though there are these exemptions, I think the reality is you probably wouldn't. Wouldn't have it. And I did find on the exemption website and I think this is, as in it's on the government website. So I think it's true. They talk about catering. So they talk about restaurants and pubs which are technically allowed to use plastic straws. So, well, according to the government website, which is the gov dot UK guidance forward slash, it's probably easier just to search single use bands and restrictions in Google.

Robbie Staniforth: We'll put in our link tree.

James Piper: Here you go. Exemptions for straws. I will read this out just in case I'm getting any of it wrong. So there are exemptions to the ban for some businesses, catering establishments. Catering establishments can supply single use straws with food and drink for immediate consumption. A catering establishment is any of these businesses. Restaurants, canteens, clubs, pubs or a similar establishment, such as like a vehicle or food store. So literally pubs are allowed to use plastic straws. I had no idea.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, no, me, you don't see them.

James Piper: Well, and this is why. So they're not allowed to be displayed. Same as the pharmacy. Okay, that's fine.

Robbie Staniforth: Illicit material.

James Piper: That's fine.

Capri sundae launched petition to overturn ban on plastic straws

We're already into the. Oh, this is a bit naughty.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah.

James Piper: Okay. You can supply them only if the customer asks.

Robbie Staniforth: Okay.

James Piper: Okay. So the customer has to ask. You have to say, can I have a plastic straw?

Robbie Staniforth: You're not gonna keep them in case someone asks you discreetly for one, are you?

James Piper: And my absolute favourite is you cannot offer them verbally or in writing.

Robbie Staniforth: In writing.

James Piper: And I just had this, like, imagine like, you know, on those things where they're doing like a drug deal and they slip a piece of paper. Oh, no, not a drug deal. What's that? Like an offer, a negotiation? Oh, yeah.

Robbie Staniforth: No, that's a better yeah, yeah.

James Piper: When they're doing a negotiation for, like, buying a business or whatever, and they slip up here, I just imagine they're. You can have a straw if you ask for it.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, my God. Yeah. And then they verbally ask you and you say, oh, just so happens that we do keep plastic straws, but that's not happening, is it?

James Piper: And then you'd have to shred that paper and then you can recycle that shredded paper, as we know. So, I mean, as we said, the reality is, I don't think many people are making plastic straws anymore. So even if you wanted to do this, I think it would be quite difficult. But a big surprise to me that there was exemptions for restaurants and pubs and technically we could have plastic straws. What's interesting about this story is Capri sundae. So you know Capra, son?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, I, know it well. Yep.

James Piper: So they sell their orange drink in a pouch.

Robbie Staniforth: It's like a foil lined pouch. Is that right?

James Piper: Yeah. So foil line, yeah, foil lined pouch with a plastic straw that you would then pierce the pouch with. And they had to move to paper straws. And that's a big problem for their product because obviously you have to pierce the pouch and certainly, pierce the pouch.

Robbie Staniforth: That's a lovely phrase.

00:30:00

James Piper: Yeah, you have to pierce the pouch. And so they found that very difficult to do. And they have very recently, beginning of September, they launched a petition. Really? Yes, they launched a petition to ask for the plastic straw to come back. So they asked the EU to overturn the rules to allow them to use a plastic straw, which I just think is quite bold in the current climate around plastic. It is a very bold move to say we think we should be allowed to use plastic straws. Now, the reason they did this is because they have developed their pouch to be a mono material, to be a single plastic type, and they've developed the straw to be the same plastic. So their argument is, which I can see, I can understand their argument. Their argument is, when you finish with the pouch, you can push the straw back into the pouch and suddenly you've got one type of plastic, okay, that could be recycled and it's flexible, so it could go into a flexible recycling scheme. That's their argument. Reality is, it's how their product works. It has to have a straw for you to be able to open it. So that's where they're struggling. and their argument is it's better to have a plastic straw than like a plastic screw, top lid that they've done in some of their bottles. So just a really interesting kind of someone fighting the bandaid, which, as I say, I just think is extremely bold in the current climate.

Robbie Staniforth: Are there that many big fans of Capri sun out there? Are they getting children out in their masses voting for this?

James Piper: I think they must have lost sales with the straw rules. I think people have got very annoyed about the paper straw and being.

Robbie Staniforth: It's just not rigid enough and sharp enough at the end to pierce it. I can sort of imagine. Yeah.

James Piper: So there you go. I just thought that was interesting to raise. In this band section, I, also found.

Robbie Staniforth: Have they had the, hashtag pierce the pouch trending? Because, I mean, they should be using that.

James Piper: Okay, guys, Capresan, you can have that for free.

Robbie Staniforth: I mean, are we endorsing it? I'm not sure we are.

James Piper: Although. Well, no, no, I don't think we should endorse that. But I do think we should recognise that it is complicated and the paper straw is definitely not being recycled 100%. that has no route for recycling. And there is an argument that a plastic straw that's made from the same material as the flexible that you can push back in is better. I can see that argument. I can see that being better. the challenge is you can't guarantee someone's going to push it back into the pouch and flexible recycling is not good enough yet for you to convince me that that is better. So I think in 2027, when flexible plastics are collected from curbside, I think capra sun potentially would have an argument to move back to plastic straws. But obviously it's banned, so they're not allowed. But, it is a really. It's an interesting topic for us to discuss.

Robbie Staniforth: It's a tricky one. Yeah. I think I'll still buy my, OJ in a recyclable bottle.

You are allowed plastic cotton buds for forensic and scientific purposes

James Piper: The other exemption I found, which I just thought was worth m calling out, was for cotton buds. You are allowed plastic cotton buds for forensic and scientific purposes.

Robbie Staniforth: Forensic purposes? As in a crime has been committed.

James Piper: A crime has been committed.

Robbie Staniforth: What? As in someone slid a piece of paper across the bar and you're trying to trace the fingerprints on said piece of paper with the straw message.

James Piper: I guess it's for DNA, isn't it? Cotton buds. So, so, yeah, they were allowed to use plastic in the forensic. So maybe there is a, you know, a very specific manufacturer who makes plastic cotton buds for forensic. I couldn't find anyone. but there you go. And interestingly, no exemptions for balloon sticks. Not even for those forensics purposes.

Robbie Staniforth: The well known balloon forensic world are in uproar about that.

James Piper: Anyway, who enforces these bans, Robbie? Like, how are they actually enforced?

Robbie Staniforth: so it's local authorities, so they can actually issue fines that cover, the, cost of the investigation. I think that's up to around 200 pounds. But I couldn't actually, see that there's anyone who's been fined. You know, this is going to be quite low on the radar of cash strapped local authorities who have lots of things to enforce, including things like fly tipping, et cetera, et cetera. So in their environmental section, I kind of think it's highly unlikely, that these fines are being issued. But those are the ones who could.

James Piper: Yeah, as we said, the reality is it's probably more likely to stop the manufacturers than the people actually doing the sales.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah. And it just makes it hard to buy this stuff for the takeaways or the pubs, etcetera.

James Piper: Rubbish or not.

Kerryn asked whether her old plastic toothbrushes could be recycled

Robbie, we've had a question from Kerryn. Kerry.

Robbie Staniforth: Oh, I know Kerryn. It's a rare name.

James Piper: Yeah, she used to work with us. So,

00:35:00

James Piper: thank you, Keren, for this question. And she, I think her toothbrushes needed replacing and she was asking whether her old plastic toothbrushes could be recycled. Oh, I actually knew this was a time critical thing because she was probably hovering over the bin. So I have actually responded to. Keren's already got the answer.

Robbie Staniforth: Ah. she knows. Okay, fine. So this is just fulfilling the rest of the listeners.

James Piper: Don't panic. Keren has a new toothbrush, everything's okay, but now we need to just tell.

Robbie Staniforth: Everyone else, okay, fine, yeah. So don't be putting that in your recycling at homes where we start, because, that plastic isn't going to get recycled. Although they, you know, they are mostly plastic and they are capable of being recycled. a company called Terracycle operates schemes for, taking back, these kinds of toothbrushes. They've currently got a scheme going with Philips, but it seems from the research to accept all brands, which sounds quite good to me.

James Piper: Like before, when we were looking at whether you can recycle blister packs. I searched Bristol in the map to see how many drop off points there were, and there were four within Bristol. I didn't think that was enough. I thought that was quite frustrating. But one of the drop off points was at the university, so I felt that was probably a good place to have one. I guess if you're a student, that would be really easy to use. So if you're listening to this and you're a student at, ue, the University of West of England, I think they have a drop off point there and it's definitely worth just checking where your local drop off points. And I think we need to do a deep dive into terracycle at some point, don't we, Robbie? Because the challenge with all these recycling schemes is they don't last forever. And so you're just like constantly checking whether that one that you were using two months ago is active. And when you're talking about a toothbrush that you might get through. I don't know what the dental association advice is. I don't want to expose myself three months. I really don't want to expose myself on how often I change my toothbrush head. So. But let's assume I do it exactly the right man of time. it's probably infrequent enough that these schemes might change and so you just have to keep checking what is available. And the terracycle website would be a good point to do that. I would imagine most people won't use that. And we'll just put the toothbrush in the bin.

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that's the reality, is you've got to be like quite eco conscious, which Kerryn is. So kudos to you, Kerendae, to go and find out where you can put these things. There's also, other alternatives, such as bamboo brushes, which I understand, compostable, biodegradable, made from natural materials. But again, those aren't getting recycled either. And how long do they take to break down too? So, there's no good solution here, I would suggest.

James Piper: Yeah. And Kevin's last message to me was, actually serves me right for not buying a bamboo toothbrush.

Robbie Staniforth: There we go.

How do Bristol waste allow you to use normal carrier bags as food waste liners

James Piper: Okay, rubbish question. We had a question from Guy, a guy called guy.

Robbie Staniforth: Guy, guy, guy, guy.

James Piper: Thanks, guy. Who asked, how do Bristol waste allow you to use normal carrier bags as food waste liners? So we've taught loads about food waste. We taught loads about using these compostable bags as liners. And then you go on the Bristol waste website and it says you can use normal carrier bags. So, how is that allowed?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, I've thought about this myself at home, you know, and I've done research in years gone by about this, and I suppose that the main thing is to say is that because of the way that the food waste is collected and transported to the recycling plant, they basically screen out all of the plastic bags, whether they are these compostable caddy liners. Or standard plastic bags, so that they're pulling out all of these bags at the beginning of the process.

James Piper: Yeah.

Councils across the UK require compostable bags for food waste

And I had another email from Mike. Thank you, Mike, who's, sent us in lots of questions and communication. So really appreciate, you getting involved with the podcast he mentioned, I think he mentioned at Epsom council, or I found Epsom council, I'm not sure. But he was mentioning about how difficult it is to actually extract, compostable bags, because they basically, once you get into that process, you start trying to extract them from the food, they go quite gummy and they maybe block up machines. And for that reason, Epsom council actually don't let you use combustible bags. So they say with the food waste, you have to use normal carrier bags, not compostable, which I just goes against everything. I understand.

Robbie Staniforth: There's so much confusion, isn't there? I think it's just got to be one or the other. Not either.

James Piper: Yes. So I really was so confused by this because it goes against everything I do. I use compostable bags in my food waste and suddenly I'm told, maybe that's bad. I should be using normal plastic bags, not compostable. So I had to reach out to Ian, friend of the podcast, always get to mention every week, because he is my carrier bag guru. He's the guy who did a lot of the compostable bag work for co op. And I reached out to him last night just to say, ian, I need your help, because I'm really confused. And he said there are two types of ways of operating food waste in councils. And again, we'll come onto these on another episode. So there's in vessel composting, which is

00:40:00

James Piper: basically just putting it straight into a container for compostable, they all require compostable bags, newspapers or no bag, because they are basically putting it straight in a compostable. So they wouldn't let you use plastic bags.

Robbie Staniforth: There's no screening process to take any plastic out.

James Piper: correct. So if your council say on their website, please use compostable bags, newspaper or no bag, it means they're doing in vessel composting and you need to listen to that. That's really important.

Robbie Staniforth: Sure.

James Piper: If your council do anaerobic digestion, which again, we'll talk about another time, they do take the bags out, but they don't remove 100% of the bags. and a lot of the plastic can be carried over. If compostable bags are used, even though there's some fragments there, it will continue to biodegrade, whereas if you use a plastic bag, it won't. So his advice is, if you use, if your council, say, use combustible bags, newspaper or no bag, definitely follow that. That is because they're using in vessel combusting. If they are saying, actually use the other, type. So you can use plastic bags or compostable bags. Compostable bags are better because they will biodegrade over time if they're left in the process, whereas plastic bags won't. Ian called out, the Italians actually do things a lot better here because what they do is they take the compostable bags out. Out, of the process, they anaerobic digestion the food waste and m. Then they compost the bags. and so in this country, we appear to burn all of the bags that get extracted from food waste. We don't actually put them in the process, they just get burnt. In Italy, they actually compost those bags. And I, just feel like that's where we need to be heading. So let's get there. UK. How do we do it?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, and we need it the same across the whole of England, the whole of Wales, the whole of Scotland, the whole of North island, for sure.

James Piper: Yeah. How do we do it? So looking at the Bristol waste website, they don't seem to mind whether it's compostable or plastic. They do all get removed, and burnt. But according to a friend of the podcast, Ian, we should definitely be used compostable bags because they will at least break down if they're left in the process, which they might be clear.

Robbie Staniforth: Thanks, James.

James Piper: I hope it was clear. We definitely need to do compostable and biodegradable soon, Robbie, for sure. Well, there you go. That's going to keep people coming back to us, especially when they see compostable or biodegradable in the episode title.

One thing we really appreciate is reviews. So please, if you got a second, just do that

Okay, that's episode twelve. We completed it.

Robbie Staniforth: Another one done. that was great.

James Piper: Who knew we were going to be talking about cotton buds being used in forensics and slips of paper being slid across a bar to try and get a plastic straw?

Robbie Staniforth: Yeah, that was. Didn't see that coming, to be fair.

James Piper: So again, if you want to read up on some of these things, particularly the bands, I'll put all of the links in our link tree, which you can get through our, show notes. You'll see the link there within our link tree. You can also access all of our WhatsApp and social media. They're all at the top there if you want to do that, but also if you just go straight directly to social media. We're rubbishpodcast, where you can follow us or you can email us at ah, talkingrubbishpodcastmail.com. and one thing I would really like to ask for is reviews. So if you've made it all the way to the end of this episode and you're listening to me now, that means you must like us. It must be. You can't have got this far and thought, this is rubbish. So we would really appreciate a review. So please, if you got a second, just do that. That would be amazing. Thank you. Thanks, Robbie. Thanks, everyone. Bye.

00:43:18